Rolling Stones hybrid intrigue

Just what the name says.
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JWB
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Postby JWB » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:57 am

krabapple wrote:er..what are 'JWB CDR revisions'?


That's Dave's slang for when I fuck with something before burning it. For example, I "revised" Hoffman's Jethro Tull discs. Those discs sound great of course but they were very scrappy in terms of presentation. I think he just did everything on the fly and didn't bother to clean anything up. There are spots on "Original Masters" that have 10-15 seconds space between songs, with hiss suddenly starting and stopping - not to mention the 20-30 seconds space between Sides One and Two of "Aqualung" where you just hear tape rolling by - I think it's ridiculous and very unprofessional. So I cleaned up between tracks, shortened the gaps on "Original Masters" to 4 seconds, and fixed the "edit gaps" in "Thick As A Brick" that Steve couldn't be bothered to fix.

I did not do this with the Stones discs, I just burned them straight.
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:04 am

JWB wrote:There are spots on "Original Masters" that have 10-15 seconds space between songs, with hiss suddenly starting and stopping


Do you remember where? I guess the only strange thing I ever noticed was the pause after the count-off to TAAB. And the break in the middle too.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
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JWB
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Postby JWB » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:29 am

lukpac wrote:
JWB wrote:There are spots on "Original Masters" that have 10-15 seconds space between songs, with hiss suddenly starting and stopping


Do you remember where? I guess the only strange thing I ever noticed was the pause after the count-off to TAAB. And the break in the middle too.


No I don't remember where. Sometimes there's the usual 5 seconds of space, other times there is 10-15 seconds. For every track on "Original masters"...the hiss continues after the fadeout, then it stops suddenly, then some silence, then some new hiss cuts in - a few seconds later, the next song finally starts. It sounds like he used two machines and went back and forth, live. There is no rhyme or reason.

"Thick As A Brick" was easy to fix, of course. It took me all of 30 seconds. Steve didn't want to dump it into a workstation, so he left it all sloppy. A STUPID decision, IMO. I would rather hear the song play straight through without those stupid gaps. I'm sure people bought it, expecting a professional job, heard those gaps in TAAB and thought, "what the fuck is this"?
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:42 am

JWB wrote:"Thick As A Brick" was easy to fix, of course. It took me all of 30 seconds. Steve didn't want to dump it into a workstation, so he left it all sloppy. A STUPID decision, IMO. I would rather hear the song play straight through without those stupid gaps. I'm sure people bought it, expecting a professional job, heard those gaps in TAAB and thought, "what the fuck is this"?


But dumping to a workstation hardens the sound.

:roll:
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
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Postby JWB » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:48 am

lukpac wrote:But dumping to a workstation hardens the sound.

:roll:


I know...would you rather have a minisule, barely detectable change in sound? Or a gap in the middle of the song?

I would have returned it back in the day...
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:53 am

JWB wrote:I know...would you rather have a minisule, barely detectable change in sound? Or a gap in the middle of the song?


How about neither?

:P
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
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Postby JWB » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:54 am

lukpac wrote:
JWB wrote:I know...would you rather have a minisule, barely detectable change in sound? Or a gap in the middle of the song?


How about neither?

:P


Yeah, I know...but you've only got two options here! Dump it to digital or leave it sloppy as fuck!
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:10 pm

JWB wrote:Yeah, I know...but you've only got two options here! Dump it to digital or leave it sloppy as fuck!


That's of course assuming (incorrectly) that "dump[ing] to digital" actually changes the sound somehow.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
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Postby JWB » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:14 pm

lukpac wrote:
JWB wrote:Yeah, I know...but you've only got two options here! Dump it to digital or leave it sloppy as fuck!


That's of course assuming (incorrectly) that "dump[ing] to digital" actually changes the sound somehow.


...or that UD1 and UD2 sound different.

I guess we need better equipment.

:roll:
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Postby krabapple » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:42 pm

JWB wrote:
lukpac wrote:
JWB wrote:There are spots on "Original Masters" that have 10-15 seconds space between songs, with hiss suddenly starting and stopping


Do you remember where? I guess the only strange thing I ever noticed was the pause after the count-off to TAAB. And the break in the middle too.


No I don't remember where. Sometimes there's the usual 5 seconds of space, other times there is 10-15 seconds. For every track on "Original masters"...the hiss continues after the fadeout, then it stops suddenly, then some silence, then some new hiss cuts in - a few seconds later, the next song finally starts. It sounds like he used two machines and went back and forth, live. There is no rhyme or reason.

"Thick As A Brick" was easy to fix, of course. It took me all of 30 seconds. Steve didn't want to dump it into a workstation, so he left it all sloppy. A STUPID decision, IMO. I would rather hear the song play straight through without those stupid gaps. I'm sure people bought it, expecting a professional job, heard those gaps in TAAB and thought, "what the fuck is this"?


Wait, I'm not getting this. (I also have nver heard 'Original Masters'). IIRC the OM version of Thick on the DCC (unlike the standard issue CD) includes the complete 'side one' of the album, which of course, like 'A Passion Play' and many another prog rock epic, is really a suite of separate 'tunes', spliced together. Are you saying the DCC has audible *gaps* in between the edits? Holy shit.
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Postby krabapple » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:51 pm

lukpac wrote:
krabapple wrote:Still not clear on what 'OOPSing' is either (invert paste of one channel on another?)


"Out of phase stereo".

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/5964/oops.htm


OK, but 'invert paste of one channel on another' (IPOOCOA) is essentially the same thing. ;>

The only mono Stones I have is what's on the hybrid Hot Rocks I. I bought that pretty soon after these SACDs came out. I'll try to remember OOPS some mono tracks on that and report the matrix #.
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:52 pm

krabapple wrote:Wait, I'm not getting this. (I also have nver heard 'Original Masters'). IIRC the OM version of Thick on the DCC (unlike the standard issue CD) includes the complete 'side one' of the album, which of course, like 'A Passion Play' and many another prog rock epic, is really a suite of separate 'tunes', spliced together. Are you saying the DCC has audible *gaps* in between the edits? Holy shit.


1) There's a gap (a second or two I guess) between the count-off and the start of the song. I'm *guessing* this wasn't included on previous versions. Anyone know if that's correct?

2) In the middle of the song there's another gap. I believe the story goes that the mix actually changes at this point, and the original tape (which SH used) didn't have the two pieces edited seamlessly. Copy tapes (from which all other copies apparently come from) do. SH didn't want to splice the tape itself, nor do editing digitally.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
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Postby JWB » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:13 pm

krabapple wrote:Are you saying the DCC has audible *gaps* in between the edits? Holy shit.


Yep. There's two spots. The countoff and about 3/4 in. If you're not going to edit the countoff onto the beginning, then why include it at all?
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:20 pm

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showp ... ostcount=5

Steve Hoffman wrote:The side was mixed in two parts because it was so hard to mix. When they dubbed it to the EQ copy they edited the parts together. I used the original master tape work parts (for the first time anywhere) and Ian Anderson forbade me to splice the two parts together or alter the tapes in any way. So, I did what I could but a little gap remains. I could have fixed that with some digital editing but that would have meant dumping the entire program to a digital workstation and I wasn't about to do that, having waited like 3 years for the original analog tapes.

So, there you have it. Enjoy it for what it is: The first anywhere release of the original first generation master mixes.


Sounds like he may have actually used two different tapes.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:36 pm

IPOOCOA is almost as funny an acronym as OOPS.

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