"Do You Wanna Dance?" First part of the clip is the 2001 remaster (my CDR with aligned channels). Second part is the Pastmaster. Hear the problem?
http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/dance.mp3
Ahh, the Beach Boys pastmasters...
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Ess Ay Cee Dee
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Xenu,
After reading all the glowing reviews of those discs, your clip does warrant a cautious approach to just assuming they're the real deal. Obviously, the Pastmaster clip sounds out of phase and, er... messy. However, you indicated your CDR has aligned channels... I assume this means that the 2001 remaster has a problem on this song, too?
It's good that you apparently improved the clip from the 2001 remaster, but how does it sound when compared *directly* (unenhanced) against the Pastmaster? That would be telling.
Jamie
After reading all the glowing reviews of those discs, your clip does warrant a cautious approach to just assuming they're the real deal. Obviously, the Pastmaster clip sounds out of phase and, er... messy. However, you indicated your CDR has aligned channels... I assume this means that the 2001 remaster has a problem on this song, too?
It's good that you apparently improved the clip from the 2001 remaster, but how does it sound when compared *directly* (unenhanced) against the Pastmaster? That would be telling.
Jamie
The 2001 issue of "Today!"--and I think Luke noted that this was a problem elsewhere, too--has the two channels out of phase by exactly one sample. This doesn't affect the sound *at all*. Seriously. It's also a digital glitch--perhaps a production glitch?--as the two channels are absolutely the same otherwise, and cancel out to digital silence when the error is compensated for. The combination of both channels being equal otherwise and the one-sample error seems to suggest that it isn't Mark L's fault, and might've been introduced later on in the process (in fact, has anybody ever asked him about this?). On my at-school CDR copy, I corrected the problem, as it took about 1 second to do in between ripping the disc image and burning it back.
By contrast, the Pastmasters glitch sounds decidedly tape-wobbly. Assuming my CDRs are accurate--and I have no reason to believe they're not--Today! at the very least demonstrates some tape problems, and I wouldn't be surprised to find them elsewhere. We know from Steve that the original tape copies were done in a rush, and we have absolutely no idea how much care the Japanese branch of EMI took in transferring 'em to digital.
Look, I'm not saying that the Pastmasters discs are worthless. That said, I find the idea of steering Beach Boys fans to a series of OOP, single-album Japanese CDs to be bizarre, especially in light of the fact that they have their own issues. The Beach Boys catalogue has especially in recent years been treated very *well*. Why go with the Pastmasters "Surfin' USA" and "Surfer Girl" when you can get a CDR of the MoFi? Or the hits on the various Hoffman discs? Is the slight maximization on the current batch of discs really that egregious? I've been listening to the entire set of Pastmasters for a few days now (thanks, Dob and Andreas!) and I haven't once really gone "There! That's the *best* version of that song I've ever heard!"
I suppose part of my problem on this front stems from the general weakness of those early Beach Boys albums as a whole. The hits from Surfin' Safari through All Summer Long--which are, with a few exceptions, equivalent to "The Good Songs"--have certainly been mastered several times over from the actual master tapes. MoFi did the second and third albums--I think we've been advised that these are flat transfers?--so we're basically left with "Surfin' Safari" (one I don't own in any form, actually, so maybe this *does* sound the best here...as an aside, anybody who carps on about the lyrics of "When I Get Home" would do well to check out "Heads You Win, Tails I Lose" for the realization that Gary Usher doesn't know what "arbitrarily" means) and the subsequent albums. Of these, "All Summer Long" has the *hits* in fake stereo, for fuck's sake, while "Today" has some obvious tape issues, and "Summer Days" has more duphonicalooza. All of the albums apparently have latter-generation splices going on at some point where the "extra" songs were hurridly duped (even if not in fake stereo). "Smiley Smile" onward have some interesting EQ differences, but does that make 'em worth tracking down?
I see inherent in this a situation similar to the Bowie RCA re-evaluation, where suddenly those old discs were the Ones To Have. But at least in that case, there are several legitimate gripes with the two (well, slightly more if you count the Au20s, the deluxe-eds, and the SACDs) subsequent masterings, and I certainly see how someone could prefer the RCA "Man Who Sold the World" to the far-brighter Au20. The Beach Boys, by contrast, have MoFi *AND* DCC *and* a more-than-competent engineer in their corner.
Ehh. Let's put it this way. In the interest of space conservation, I now have all of those PMs sitting on my HD in FLAC format. In total, the entire catalogue takes up 1.6 gigs, or *slightly* more than the space of two CDs. Compensate me the three CDRs, and I'll happily fire these off to you.
By contrast, the Pastmasters glitch sounds decidedly tape-wobbly. Assuming my CDRs are accurate--and I have no reason to believe they're not--Today! at the very least demonstrates some tape problems, and I wouldn't be surprised to find them elsewhere. We know from Steve that the original tape copies were done in a rush, and we have absolutely no idea how much care the Japanese branch of EMI took in transferring 'em to digital.
Look, I'm not saying that the Pastmasters discs are worthless. That said, I find the idea of steering Beach Boys fans to a series of OOP, single-album Japanese CDs to be bizarre, especially in light of the fact that they have their own issues. The Beach Boys catalogue has especially in recent years been treated very *well*. Why go with the Pastmasters "Surfin' USA" and "Surfer Girl" when you can get a CDR of the MoFi? Or the hits on the various Hoffman discs? Is the slight maximization on the current batch of discs really that egregious? I've been listening to the entire set of Pastmasters for a few days now (thanks, Dob and Andreas!) and I haven't once really gone "There! That's the *best* version of that song I've ever heard!"
I suppose part of my problem on this front stems from the general weakness of those early Beach Boys albums as a whole. The hits from Surfin' Safari through All Summer Long--which are, with a few exceptions, equivalent to "The Good Songs"--have certainly been mastered several times over from the actual master tapes. MoFi did the second and third albums--I think we've been advised that these are flat transfers?--so we're basically left with "Surfin' Safari" (one I don't own in any form, actually, so maybe this *does* sound the best here...as an aside, anybody who carps on about the lyrics of "When I Get Home" would do well to check out "Heads You Win, Tails I Lose" for the realization that Gary Usher doesn't know what "arbitrarily" means) and the subsequent albums. Of these, "All Summer Long" has the *hits* in fake stereo, for fuck's sake, while "Today" has some obvious tape issues, and "Summer Days" has more duphonicalooza. All of the albums apparently have latter-generation splices going on at some point where the "extra" songs were hurridly duped (even if not in fake stereo). "Smiley Smile" onward have some interesting EQ differences, but does that make 'em worth tracking down?
I see inherent in this a situation similar to the Bowie RCA re-evaluation, where suddenly those old discs were the Ones To Have. But at least in that case, there are several legitimate gripes with the two (well, slightly more if you count the Au20s, the deluxe-eds, and the SACDs) subsequent masterings, and I certainly see how someone could prefer the RCA "Man Who Sold the World" to the far-brighter Au20. The Beach Boys, by contrast, have MoFi *AND* DCC *and* a more-than-competent engineer in their corner.
Ehh. Let's put it this way. In the interest of space conservation, I now have all of those PMs sitting on my HD in FLAC format. In total, the entire catalogue takes up 1.6 gigs, or *slightly* more than the space of two CDs. Compensate me the three CDRs, and I'll happily fire these off to you.
Xenu wrote:Assuming my CDRs are accurate--and I have no reason to believe they're not...
Damn straight, buddy.
Today! at the very least demonstrates some tape problems, and I wouldn't be surprised to find them elsewhere.
Now you have me curious to see how the DCC compares. Honestly, I hear "through" a lot of these glitches, similar to how some folks hear through surface noise on an LP.
That said, I find the idea of steering Beach Boys fans to a series of OOP, single-album Japanese CDs to be bizarre, especially in light of the fact that they have their own issues. The Beach Boys catalogue has especially in recent years been treated very *well*. Why go with the Pastmasters "Surfin' USA" and "Surfer Girl" when you can get a CDR of the MoFi? Or the hits on the various Hoffman discs? Is the slight maximization on the current batch of discs really that egregious?
For me it's a question of tonality. IMO the tonality of the DCC Today! tracks, or the Linett, is generally not as good as the Pastmasters. I can even hear it on the short clip that you provided. Furthermore, I split my preferences down to individual tracks...meaning that there is no single best version of Today! IMO (that I've heard, natch). But that's just me. Most folks seem perfectly satisfied with "this" version or "that" version (and occasionally I am too).
The Mofi CD was a disappointment to me, but I have a needle drop of the MFSL Surfer Girl vinyl that sounds better than the DCC, Linett, or the PM.
In any case, I wouldn't recommend the PMs to anyone without stressing the presence of the fake stereo tracks.
I've been listening to the entire set of Pastmasters for a few days now (thanks, Dob and Andreas!) and I haven't once really gone "There! That's the *best* version of that song I've ever heard!"
I'd have to agree that the differences are subtle enough to only be really appreciated in an A/B comparison. Which begs the question -- in that case, is it really that important?
The Beach Boys, by contrast, have MoFi *AND* DCC *and* a more-than-competent engineer in their corner.
It is an embarassment of riches. I'm sure that Beatles fans are insanely jealous...especially the ones who are also SH fans.
Dob
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"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken
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lukpac
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Xenu wrote:The 2001 issue of "Today!"--and I think Luke noted that this was a problem elsewhere, too--has the two channels out of phase by exactly one sample.
Don't remember ever catching it on a BB disc (I do have Today/All Summer Long, though), but I have pointed it out on Quad and the Buddy Holly disc.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
Dob wrote:Now you have me curious to see how the DCC compares. Honestly, I hear "through" a lot of these glitches, similar to how some folks hear through surface noise on an LP.
I can too, occasionally, but if I think I hear something I usually go back and check. FWIW, I heard *this* glitch in a friend's Jeep while doing 70 on 90/94, so it's pretty obvious.
For me it's a question of tonality. IMO the tonality of the DCC Today! tracks, or the Linett, is generally not as good as the Pastmasters. I can even hear it on the short clip that you provided. Furthermore, I split my preferences down to individual tracks...meaning that there is no single best version of Today! IMO (that I've heard, natch). But that's just me. Most folks seem perfectly satisfied with "this" version or "that" version (and occasionally I am too).
Sure, I see what you mean, and I'm not trying to argue with that preference.
The Mofi CD was a disappointment to me, but I have a needle drop of the MFSL Surfer Girl vinyl that sounds better than the DCC, Linett, or the PM.
What's disappointing about the MoFi? I own it, but I can't say I've listened to it more than two or three times. I'd imagine it sounds better than the Pastmasters.
In any case, I wouldn't recommend the PMs to anyone without stressing the presence of the fake stereo tracks.
Of course.
I'd have to agree that the differences are subtle enough to only be really appreciated in an A/B comparison. Which begs the question -- in that case, is it really that important?
My point exactly. Subtle increases in sound quality? Good for you. Tape glitch? Ehhhh...
It is an embarassment of riches. I'm sure that Beatles fans are insanely jealous...especially the ones who are also SH fans.
Yeah. Add to that the Sea of Tunes sets, and I almost want to cry. All in all, I'd like to think that the quibbles people have with the Beach Boys catalog are minor. All in all, it's in superb shape.
lukpac wrote:Xenu wrote:The 2001 issue of "Today!"--and I think Luke noted that this was a problem elsewhere, too--has the two channels out of phase by exactly one sample.
Don't remember ever catching it on a BB disc (I do have Today/All Summer Long, though), but I have pointed it out on Quad and the Buddy Holly disc.
If you didn't point it out, someone else did; I certainly didn't discover it independently.
Did you ever compare the Pastmasters Wild Honey, Friends and 20/20 to the remaster?
It is a day and night difference, for me. There is nothing subtle about that. I would never recommend the remasters to anyone without pointing out the significant treble boost and the fact that the volume of several tracks is about 120 % (with the top 20% erased). In addition, the treble boost makes the remasters more hissy.
Check out the sound and waveform of Here Comes The Night, How She Boogalooed or All I Want To Do from the remasters and tell me that this is competent mastering.
It is a day and night difference, for me. There is nothing subtle about that. I would never recommend the remasters to anyone without pointing out the significant treble boost and the fact that the volume of several tracks is about 120 % (with the top 20% erased). In addition, the treble boost makes the remasters more hissy.
Check out the sound and waveform of Here Comes The Night, How She Boogalooed or All I Want To Do from the remasters and tell me that this is competent mastering.
I just did a little bit of comparison, using volume-matched versions of the material.
The result: you're right, in that the 2001 versions are significantly more trebly (with slightly less bottom end) than the Pastmasters versions (I limited this comparison to a few tracks off Friends/20-20). I dispute your conclusions, though. For one, the treble boost isn't really all that significant; I think it would be more accurate to call this "slightly different EQ" than a "treble spike" on the remaster. For another, while a peak limiter has clearly been used on the remaster (sparingly in some places, and right to the brink of my comfort zone on"All I Want to Do"), I don't see evidence of much *else* dynamic processing.
Another thing: why do we assume that the remaster has a treble boost, and that the Pastmaster doesn't have a slight treble cut? Steve says that the PMs are flat transfers. Great. That doesn't mean that the engineers in Japan didn't do any work of their own.
I definitely see how someone could prefer the EQ of these iterations of the albums. That's far from saying that the 2001 reissues represent "incompetent mastering." At most, the 2001 remasters represent the use of a peak limiter and potentially an EQ that favors the high end.
The result: you're right, in that the 2001 versions are significantly more trebly (with slightly less bottom end) than the Pastmasters versions (I limited this comparison to a few tracks off Friends/20-20). I dispute your conclusions, though. For one, the treble boost isn't really all that significant; I think it would be more accurate to call this "slightly different EQ" than a "treble spike" on the remaster. For another, while a peak limiter has clearly been used on the remaster (sparingly in some places, and right to the brink of my comfort zone on"All I Want to Do"), I don't see evidence of much *else* dynamic processing.
Another thing: why do we assume that the remaster has a treble boost, and that the Pastmaster doesn't have a slight treble cut? Steve says that the PMs are flat transfers. Great. That doesn't mean that the engineers in Japan didn't do any work of their own.
I definitely see how someone could prefer the EQ of these iterations of the albums. That's far from saying that the 2001 reissues represent "incompetent mastering." At most, the 2001 remasters represent the use of a peak limiter and potentially an EQ that favors the high end.
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
Xenu wrote:At most, the 2001 remasters represent the use of a peak limiter and potentially an EQ that favors the high end.
That is a very nice and diplomatic summary of why I don't like them.
Last edited by Andreas on Wed May 11, 2005 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Xenu wrote:Another thing: why do we assume that the remaster has a treble boost, and that the Pastmaster doesn't have a slight treble cut? Steve says that the PMs are flat transfers. Great. That doesn't mean that the engineers in Japan didn't do any work of their own.
The tonality is about the same as on the DCCs/Razor & Tie, if you compare tracks like Heroes And Villains, Darlin', Wild Honey, Friends or I Can Hear Music. Of course, that does not prove anything.
Very interesting thread... thanks for all the detail, Xenu! While I haven't heard the PastMasters CDs myself, I tend to think I'd probably agree with you. I'm just not *that* unhappy with the sound of the 2001 remasters, and for my infrequent Beach Boys listening needs, they're probably all I need.
I definitely agree with you about the weakness of the early Beach Boys album catalogue. There's a lot more to them than their hit singles, but the dross is not in short supply. Just thinking about "Cassius (Love) Vs. Sonny (Wilson)" or whatever it is called makes my skin start crawling away. I suppose (for anyone hearing that track for the first time back in 1964) that song provided ample warning as to what a jerk Mike Love must be in person...
Jamie
I definitely agree with you about the weakness of the early Beach Boys album catalogue. There's a lot more to them than their hit singles, but the dross is not in short supply. Just thinking about "Cassius (Love) Vs. Sonny (Wilson)" or whatever it is called makes my skin start crawling away. I suppose (for anyone hearing that track for the first time back in 1964) that song provided ample warning as to what a jerk Mike Love must be in person...
Jamie
"Dross" is putting it lightly.
Now, of course, I wonder how the mini-LPs compare. I assumed that they were just clones of otherwise-available masterings (as most mini-LPs are), but some swear that this isn't the case. Of course, the two mini-LPs I have--Shut Down V. 2 and Concert, which I got for $5 each--are titles I don't have on either the 1990 or 2001 CDs, so...
Now, of course, I wonder how the mini-LPs compare. I assumed that they were just clones of otherwise-available masterings (as most mini-LPs are), but some swear that this isn't the case. Of course, the two mini-LPs I have--Shut Down V. 2 and Concert, which I got for $5 each--are titles I don't have on either the 1990 or 2001 CDs, so...
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911