Anyone have the Beach Boys "Wild Honey" Pastmaster

[MK]

Do the twofers favor stereo? I personally prefer mono, period, even though they have less fidelity (the stereo mixes are more 'hi-fi,' definitely, but I still go for mono 99.9% of the time).

I bring this up because the "Pastmasters" favor stereo, and if the two-fers prefer mono, then that's one reason to go for the PMs.

Kind of moot for the mono-only Lp's like Today, etc. but you know what I mean.

[lukpac]

Do the twofers favor stereo? I personally prefer mono, period, even though they have less fidelity (the stereo mixes are more 'hi-fi,' definitely, but I still go for mono 99.9% of the time).

I bring this up because the "Pastmasters" favor stereo, and if the two-fers prefer mono, then that's one reason to go for the PMs.

Kind of moot for the mono-only Lp's like Today, etc. but you know what I mean.

I think if an original stereo mix existed, Mark used it for the twofers. If something was mono/duophonic, he used mono. Same with Hoffman's discs.

[MK]

I guess I'll stick with the box set, the only place I can think of where you can get the mono tracks without any NoNoise. Linnett was emphatic that no NoNoise or noise reduction was used on the box set, but the EQ is boosted. You can fix it though: find the select Hoffman-mastered tracks that are mono and they can be your guide. Going by that, the earlier stuff seems to have a more pronounced boost, +3 db at 10k and +2 db at 6k, I think, and then when you get to 1965 with Today! et al it's more like +2 db at 8k, etc.

[Dob]

The earlier albums sound fine, but "Today" has a few treble issues...

Interesting...IMO "Today" is one of the best PMs; even better sounding than the tracks on the DCCs.

I understand that, but at the same time, "OH MY GOD THE PASTMASTERS THEY ARE AMAZING OH WOW I JUST GOT 'SURFIN' SAFARI!' AND OMGOMGOMGOMGLOL" might be a bit much.

Heh...consider the source. After one of the SHites posted a rave review, another member asked specifically what the poster thought about the horrible fake stereo tracks. His reply (paraphrasing)? "Sounded good to me...I didn't notice anything."

If you're getting ready to listen to some music for the first time and you tell yourself, "I know this is going to sound better than any other version I've ever heard," chances are it will. What is in short supply on SHtv is some healthy skepticism of "the consensus opinion."

[Andreas]

With the Stones discs, you could say "They're pretty good, but not perfect. Some suspect sources, some NR."

With the Beach Boys Pastmasters discs, you could say "They're pretty good, but not perfect. Some suspect sources, some fake stereo."

Right. Except by "master tapes," you mean "COPIES of the master tapes." Lots of stuff can go wrong with copying.

Why copies? And what do you think went wrong?

Yes, I knew to adjust the volume.

Sorry If I sounded condescending here. I just did not find anything "muffled" about them on Wild Honey, Friends and 20/20, the ones which I primarily listened to.

There's really not that much more of a "bass cloud" on the ones I have versus the MoFi and DCC and 2001 versions of the tracks.

Wild Honey has more bass on the Pastmasters CD than on the 2001 remaster.

The earlier albums sound fine, but "Today" has a few treble issues, and "Summer Days" is just kind of blah.

Interesting. Some of these songs were taken off the master tapes when Capitol issued truncated 10-track versions of these albums in the 1970s. When Toshiba mastered the Pastmasters CDs, these songs were missing on the tape. When they ordered those, they received fake stereo copies from Capitol USA. On Today and Summer Days, they folded down those fake stereos to mono, and the result is of course terrible. I don't know which songs this refers to specifically, but In The Back Of My Mind, Amusement Parks USA and Bugged At My Old Man are among those, I believe.

I understand that, but at the same time, "OH MY GOD THE PASTMASTERS THEY ARE AMAZING OH WOW I JUST GOT 'SURFIN' SAFARI!' AND OMGOMGOMGOMGLOL" might be a bit much.

Who said that? And if so, even a tiny improvement on some songs can mean a lot, if you are a fan. Come on, you wouldn't have listened to all those various Stones and Kinks discs otherwise.

[Andreas]

I guess I'll stick with the box set, the only place I can think of where you can get the mono tracks without any NoNoise. Linnett was emphatic that no NoNoise or noise reduction was used on the box set, but the EQ is boosted.

Several intros sound very strange on the box set, e.g. California Girls and the Pet Sounds tracks. I bet that Linett remixed those intros from the multis to mono and spliced these cleaned-up intros in. See, no noise reduction, but not exactly "unprocessed" either.

The reason for this suspect is that Linett did exactly this for the Pet Sounds 1990 CD (according to SH), and he never denied (neither confirmed) that he did the same on the box set.

However, I agree with you about the mono mixes. I wish Steve had used exclusively mono mixes for all the early songs. I remember that he did not like the heavy compression that was applied to those mono mixes (e.g. Surfin' USA).

[Andreas]

If you're getting ready to listen to some music for the first time and you tell yourself, "I know this is going to sound better than any other version I've ever heard," chances are it will. What is in short supply on SHtv is some healthy skepticism of "the consensus opinion."

Consensus is crap. People are like sheep, following the shepherd blindly. I prefer to make up my mind on my own.

However, I have huge respect for Steve Hoffman's opinions. Not for the "forum consensus", whatever this is.

He never said that the Pastmasters are perfect, or "Oh My God, what a revelation". He said that they were mastered flat from the master tapes, and that some are fake stereo for the reasons explained. If they are really better than other sources, you have to find out for yourself. Steve never said that the Pastmasters are objectively better than the 2001 remasters.

[Chris M]

I wish Steve had used exclusively mono mixes for all the early songs. I remember that he did not like the heavy compression that was applied to those mono mixes (e.g. Surfin' USA).

Those early BB's stereo mixes are some of my favorite stereo mixes ever. Don't Worry Baby, The Warmth of the Sun, Hushabye, etc are just incredible. Just curious, why do you prefer the mono mixes?

[Chris M]

http://www.comiclist.com/smileshop/view ... b1368923b8

Check out the post from Beach Boys vault guy Alan Boyd. Some VERY interesting info on missing Smile tapes. In short he found a late 70's photograph of a tape shelf at Brother Studio - the photo has safty copies of all of the albums as well as a tape box (1/4" or 1/2") labled BRIAN - DUMB ANGEL The tape is not in the archives. What the fuck could be on that reel? Maybe Brian really did burn some of the Smile tapes?

[Xenu]

With the Beach Boys Pastmasters discs, you could say "They're pretty good, but not perfect. Some suspect sources, some fake stereo."

I could, but then again...I mean, this might sound odd, but I've never encountered a really *bad* sounding Beach Boys disc, y'know? Those early twofers were no-noised, but weren't at all wretched, from what I can recall. Those cheapo Capitol discs weren't horrible ('though I've never heard the pre-Made-in-the-USA ones, like "California Girls").

Sure, the Pastmasters discs sound pretty good, then. I apologize if I sounded untowardly negative. It's just...
well

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showt ... hp?t=51110

I thought that thread was kinda silly.

Why copies? And what do you think went wrong?

With the recent "old CDs are better revisionism" thing, much of the philosophy tends to be "Oh, well, they used whatever tape they had lying around, but they didn't process it, so it sounded OK." In most cases, however, they didn't generate *new* analogue copies. The possibilities for fucking tape alignment, etc. up increase the instant you're whipping off a quickie analogue copy tape for your foreign reissue arm in the late eighties.

Sorry If I sounded condescending here. I just did not find anything "muffled" about them on Wild Honey, Friends and 20/20, the ones which I primarily listened to.

Which are also the ones I haven't heard...HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT.
(did we discuss this already, actually?)

Interesting. Some of these songs were taken off the master tapes when Capitol issued truncated 10-track versions of these albums in the 1970s. When Toshiba mastered the Pastmasters CDs, these songs were missing on the tape. When they ordered those, they received fake stereo copies from Capitol USA. On Today and Summer Days, they folded down those fake stereos to mono, and the result is of course terrible. I don't know which songs this refers to specifically, but In The Back Of My Mind, Amusement Parks USA and Bugged At My Old Man are among those, I believe.

I know, I know. I've read Steve's story (have to wonder how he got the inside word on these). FWIW, the tracks I have problems with are not ones that've obviously been fucked around with.

Who said that? And if so, even a tiny improvement on some songs can mean a lot, if you are a fan. Come on, you wouldn't have listened to all those various Stones and Kinks discs otherwise.

I'm not usually looking for tiny improvements, though...which may be why I'm so useless when it comes to comparisons of those early Stones tracks. Sometimes, a difference is obvious...I say "oh, well, this clearly came from a better tape." When you're dealing with stuff this close together, though, it's hard to be sure you're not just fooling yourself.

I also find something inherently weird with finding improvements in a source we clearly know to be deficient. Yes, I know, "Let It Bleed," and everything...I don't disagree with it in theory, but it still seems odd at times.

[Andreas]

I mean, this might sound odd, but I've never encountered a really *bad* sounding Beach Boys disc, y'know?

You could try the 1995 Capitol version of "Greatest Hits", the one which used the stereo versions from unknown tapes. Horrible. (No noise reduction, though). Or you could try "The Very Best Of The Beach Boys", a 30 track CD that is currently available in Germany. Think of the noise reduction on the 1990 twofers, quadruple the effect, and you get the idea. But then again, these are rather obscure.

I thought that thread was kinda silly.

Ignore the thread title and the initial post. What is left is a good thread.

With the recent "old CDs are better revisionism" thing

Why is that revisionism?

much of the philosophy tends to be "Oh, well, they used whatever tape they had lying around, but they didn't process it, so it sounded OK."

Well, I share this opinion, mostly. With the exception of DCC, MFSL, AF, AP, and Bill Inglot, I see very few improvements in modern mastering.

Of course, in some cases, the improved tape source is more important than mastering issues (see Let It Bleed or Beggars Banquet, or In The Court Of The Crimson King for the most extreme example that I am aware of).

The possibilities for fucking tape alignment, etc. up increase the instant you're whipping off a quickie analogue copy tape for your foreign reissue arm in the late eighties.

True, but could you cite a specific example?

The Pastmasters Smiley Smile has stereo distortion. Is that one of the issues you are thinking of?

Which are also the ones I haven't heard...HINT HINT HINT HINT HINT. (did we discuss this already, actually?)

Not in detail, yet.

I know, I know. I've read Steve's story (have to wonder how he got the inside word on these). FWIW, the tracks I have problems with are not ones that've obviously been fucked around with.

Which ones? Okay, you mentionned She Knows Me Too Well.

I also find something inherently weird with finding improvements in a source we clearly know to be deficient.

Well, do we really know the source to be deficient? And one tape generation away from the master tape is not necessarily "deficient", in my opinion.

[Andreas]

Just curious, why do you prefer the mono mixes?

The vocal blend on those mono mixes is just magical, in my opinion. Brian worked hard to get the balance right, which is not easy in mono, if you want to avoid that some elements are completely lost in the mix.

If you have lead vocals left and backing vocals right, you introduce a separation that was not intended by its creator.

There are other issues. Fun Fun Fun in stereo sounds thin and lightweight, and the coda is truncated. Wendy in stereo has noises (coughing) and stereo mistakes (strange echo effect during the intro). Litte Deuce Coupe does not rock in stereo. The vocals are usually too loud on the stereo mixes.

[Andreas]

Do the twofers favor stereo? I personally prefer mono, period, even though they have less fidelity (the stereo mixes are more 'hi-fi,' definitely, but I still go for mono 99.9% of the time).

I bring this up because the "Pastmasters" favor stereo, and if the two-fers prefer mono, then that's one reason to go for the PMs.

Ahem...is that really what you wanted to say? You prefer mono, and since the Pastmasters favor stereo, you want to go for the Pastmasters?

Anyway, except for those fake stereo sources, the Pastmasters have the same mono-stereo content as the twofers (1990 or 2001). In other words, the albums Surfin' USA, Surfer Girl, Little Deuce Coupe, Shut Down Volume 2 and All Summer Long are presented in their stereo mixes. (Except a few songs that were never mixed in stereo, e.g. I Get Around.)

[Dob]

He (SH) never said that the Pastmasters are perfect, or "Oh My God, what a revelation". He said that they were mastered flat from the master tapes...

To many SHites, "flat transfer" almost always means "OMG, what a revelation."

Steve never said that the Pastmasters are objectively better than the 2001 remasters.

Well, he clearly prefers them. I think the way he put it was "if you've ever dreamed of Brian Wilson coming over to your house with the master tapes and playing them for you, this is as close to that as you're going to get." Disregarding the fake stereo tracks, of course. And the PM Pet Sounds.

[MK]

Ahem...is that really what you wanted to say? You prefer mono, and since the Pastmasters favor stereo, you want to go for the Pastmasters?

Anyway, except for those fake stereo sources, the Pastmasters have the same mono-stereo content as the twofers (1990 or 2001). In other words, the albums Surfin' USA, Surfer Girl, Little Deuce Coupe, Shut Down Volume 2 and All Summer Long are presented in their stereo mixes. (Except a few songs that were never mixed in stereo, e.g. I Get Around.)

NO, that's not what I'm saying. I'll separate personal preferences and recommendations for others more clearly: PERSONALLY, this is ME talking, I'd stick with the original MONO mixes.

BUT, if OTHERS prefer STEREO, I would recommend they get the PM's.

But going back to MY preferences, the only PM with real appeal to me is "Wild Honey" because it's mono (no vintage true stereo mix exists) and no duophonic fold-downs. I'm not crazy about "Friends" and "20/20," the best tracks are already on Steve's "40 Greatest Hits" or the box set where they sound fine.

"Today" and "Summer Days" are great early albums that are mostly mono on the PM's, but I already have "Endless Summer" and "40 Greatest Hits" on top of the box set and the HDCD twofer, so I feel like I'd only be getting the PM's for a few tracks, though "Kiss Me Baby" and "Please Let Me Wonder" are great tracks.