Rolling Stones London / Bowie RCA

[JWB]

I might as well.

[JWB]

Fuck, their server just went down, I'll have to do it later.

[krabapple]

I'm already getting bitched at on SHtv about this thread. A THREAD ON A DIFFERENT FORUM. I guess I should expect this kind of nonsense.

Well, it's only fair -- we certainly bitch about them, here.

[JWB]

I'm already getting bitched at on SHtv about this thread. A THREAD ON A DIFFERENT FORUM. I guess I should expect this kind of nonsense.

Well, it's only fair -- we certainly bitch about them, here.

Yeah but the SH forums have etiquette!

[dudelsack]

Well, reading the entire thread, it seems as though Power-douche stated his opinion, you crapped on it and started in with with the old "this isn't the master tape" un-supportable argument, and he and that Sony guy called you on it. Prissy or not, they've got a point.

[lukpac]

On the other hand, ABKCO *did* say they finally found the master tape for the SACD, and that *all* previous issues came from a copy tape that was too slow. The aural evidence seems to back that up...

[JWB]

On the other hand, ABKCO *did* say they finally found the master tape for the SACD, and that *all* previous issues came from a copy tape that was too slow. The aural evidence seems to back that up...

You're absolutely right. I had forgotten about that, but I KNEW the Abkco's were closer to the master for some reason.

[Xenu]

On the other hand, it's surprising that the master has tape damage on "Stray Cat Blues," but none of the copy tapes do.

We can quibble about Between the Buttons, December's Children, and others; those are well within the gray area. The three "it's hard to see how opinions differ" titles are Beggars, Bleed, and After-math, the last in favor of the London disc and the previous two in favor of the SACD. Beggars *absolutely* comes from a better tape. Acoustic guitars finally sound decent, percussion is positively lively...a success all around. "Let It Bleed" is less of a night-and-day difference, but we've clearly jumped at least one tape generation, as bleed-through that's been on every previous CD of the album is suddenly gone. Is it *the* master? I don't know. But it's certainly better.

I still don't know what happened to "Aftermath." Either the tape is on its way out, or Ludwig (or someone else) just made some horrible EQ choices.

[lukpac]

On the other hand, it's surprising that the master has tape damage on "Stray Cat Blues," but none of the copy tapes do.

It could have been oxide shed from being in storage or something. I.e., it was fine when they made the initial copies but got damaged later.

We can quibble about Between the Buttons, December's Children, and others; those are well within the gray area.

For the "unprocessed" tracks on BtB, I'd tend to agree. I think it's a toss up. But there's NR on a good chunk of those tracks, which makes them sound stranger than they already are.

I can't say I remember enough about DC at the moment.

The three "it's hard to see how opinions differ" titles are Beggars, Bleed, and After-math, the last in favor of the London disc and the previous two in favor of the SACD. Beggars *absolutely* comes from a better tape. Acoustic guitars finally sound decent, percussion is positively lively...a success all around. "Let It Bleed" is less of a night-and-day difference, but we've clearly jumped at least one tape generation, as bleed-through that's been on every previous CD of the album is suddenly gone. Is it *the* master? I don't know. But it's certainly better.

Agreed, except perhaps some EQ differences. I should compare LIB again to the London.

I still don't know what happened to "Aftermath." Either the tape is on its way out, or Ludwig (or someone else) just made some horrible EQ choices.

I'm going with "horrible [...] choices", since I don't really hear any *tape* problems, just strange mastering.

[Rspaight]

On the other hand, it's surprising that the master has tape damage on "Stray Cat Blues," but none of the copy tapes do.

Perhaps the album cover is actually a picture of the master tape storage facility.

Ryan

[dcooper]

I'm already getting bitched at on SHtv about this thread. A THREAD ON A DIFFERENT FORUM. I guess I should expect this kind of nonsense.

The next step, JWB, is that you'll find yourself unable to load the webpage while the SH cookie is on your computer. It won't specifically say you've been banned, you'll simply be unable to download the page. That's how they got rid of me. It's a clever trick which allows them to continue to prop up the size of their membership, while simultaneously banning undesirable members (i.e., those that don't follow the group-think 100% of the time).

[Rspaight]

I smell a thread move to the Snakepit.

Ryan

[Patrick M]

It could have been oxide shed from being in storage or something.

Perhaps it was stored in an oxide shed.

[Dob]

"Let It Bleed" is less of a night-and-day difference, but we've clearly jumped at least one tape generation, as bleed-through that's been on every previous CD of the album is suddenly gone. Is it *the* master? I don't know. But it's certainly better.

The only two tracks that I think are "night and day" superior on the SACD are Gimme Shelter and (to a lesser extent) Midnight Rambler. Other tracks, although demonstrably from better sources (Love In Vain, Country Honk, Let It Bleed, YCAGWYW), have an unfortunate tonality (due to mastering EQ choices, most likely) that I don't find appealing. The only tracks that sound a lot better on the London, IMO, are You Got The Silver and (to a lesser extent) Monkey Man. Again, this is probably due to SACD mastering choices...I think it's fairly safe to assume that the London is a flat transfer of whatever tape they used.

When I did my own remaster of this album, I did extensive comparisons of the London and the SACD. I ended up using the SACD for all but Silver, Monkey Man...and YCAGWYW, which doesn't necessarily sound better on the London, but I found it easier to fix from a mastering standpoint.

[dcooper]

DOB, are you basing your conclusions on the redbook or SACD layer?