DSOTM Black Triangle or Japan Harvest=Same Mastering?

[Larkston Zinazpic]

There's a thread over on the SH Forum about this, and it's getting kind of long but here's the basic situation: the discussion was about those early Black Triangles in comparison with the much less expensive Black Harvest CDs from Japan. The Night Gort over there has always said that the "Breath Of Life" has always been exclusive to his 1A1 Black Triangle of DSOTM, without objection from anyone. I own the Black Harvest with "21A2" on the inner ring, and I've been pretty happy with it, so I wondered aloud in that thread what differences there might be between Dave's disc and mine.

To move ahead to the present, basically Dave has heard the same three Japan discs that I have: his 1A1 Black Triangle (he sent a copy to me), the Black Face 21A2 (that Jamesmaya sent to him), and the Black Triangle "U1A1TO" (I sent my copy to Dave for him to compare). Dave believes at this point that each disc contains a different mastering--three separate masterings. Based on what I hear, I say there are two. The U1A1TO disc certainly stands apart from the other two being a much louder mastering, but the 1A1 disc and the 21A2 disc sound identical, when all is said and done. In my CD player they sounded different at first, only because Dave did not burn with pre-emphasis flags, but after that I used my Sony X779ES as a transport to my RME DIGI96/8 PAD and set de-emphasis manually. The result was that there was no audible difference between sources, whether I compared CD to CD or CD to the wavs I ripped. Opening up the wav files in Cool Edit was interesting as well, because the structure of the wav display from the two different sources looked (not surprisingly) identical. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

Has anyone else compared different pressings that are often touted as being different masterings, only to find out they were the same anyway? I know Luke has already done comparisons of the UDIs and UDIIs over at the SH forum and found they were the same...how dare he preach that kind of heresy over there!


Greg

[krabapple]

Has anyone else compared different pressings that are often touted as being different masterings, only to find out they were the same anyway? I know Luke has already done comparisons of the UDIs and UDIIs over at the SH forum and found they were the same...how dare he preach that kind of heresy over there!


Greg

I've done objective measurements of geographically diverse versions of Led Zeppelin CDs that supposdly sound different ...and found that they measured *exactly the same*. Alas, I seem to be unable to post my results ot SHtv.

Dave Nightgorf is a reliable doofus when it comes to 'differences'. I wouldn't take ANYTHING he says about what he hears, seriously. They guy seems completely addicted to floobydust.

[lukpac]

Greg, if you want to send CD-Rs, I can do some checking...

[Andreas]

Do I understand correctly that the black triangle CD has pre-emphasis, and the black face Japanese Harvest has not? If so, how could you test if they are from the same digital master?

And if so, are we sure that pre-emphasis is treated exactly the same way by every CD player? Maybe that's why the two CDs sound different on Dave's system, and not different on Greg's?

[Larkston Zinazpic]

I know for sure that my 21A2 disc has pre-emphasis, and I'm sure that Dave's original disc has it too, but EAC doesn't detect it on either of these discs, and Dave copied his 1A1 without pre-emphasis flags. When playing these discs in my CDP, my 21A2 "de-emphasized" and the 1A1 copy didn't because of that, and that's why they sounded different.

However, the RME soundcard as DAC balanced this out, because the de-emphasis circuit has to be set manually (it's not automatic), so with the circuit off both discs sounded bright but also sounded alike, and with the circuit on both discs sounded "right", but still identical. I've heard that not all de-emphasis circuits are created equal, so maybe this is part of the problem, but these discs are still sonically identical as far as I'm concerned.

As far as the Led Zep thing goes, some guys at the SH Forum were making a big fuss about the West German HOTH...turns out that it's sonically identical to the original US version anyway.


Greg

[lukpac]

Sounds like they should be the same.

Note pre-emphasis *is* part of the red book standard. While it is possible that some players might not sound the same, they *should*. Think of it as the RIAA curve of CDs (only you don't have to use it).

http://www.dsprelated.com/showmessage/2587/1.php

[Dob]

The Night Gort over there has always said that the "Breath Of Life" has always been exclusive to his 1A1 Black Triangle of DSOTM, without objection from anyone.

Well, it sounds like you're objecting...and others have too IIRC.

One of the (many) problems with the NG is that he careens from one extreme to another, and that is partially manifested in his oft-repeated "The A version of this album is mastered better than the B version." If he's ever talked about track to track differences, I don't remember it.

Assuming that two versions are indeed different masterings, it only stands to reason that there could be track to track differences. For example, if one mastering tweak, like EQ, is applied to the whole album, the EQ will sound better on some tracks than others, yes? This is even more true if each track gets its own distinctive EQ. This analysis can be taken even further, down into sections of tracks, but I (arbitrarily) limit it to tracks, as that makes a compilation easier to do!

Of course, if one mastering has poorly chosen EQ, or has been heavily NRed, or uses an inferior source, every track may indeed sound worse and the blanket statement would apply. But I am suspicious of someone that consistently pushes one mastering over another. Why would you hesitate to question the opinion of someone like that? FWIW, I have the UD1 and the black Harvest (which I believe is the "inferior" mastering). After comparing the two, I like the Harvest for the first three tracks plus "Us and Them," and the UD1 for the remainder. I also compared the UD1 to the Shine On box version, liking the UD1 better (IIRC for every track), and to the SACD version of "Money," which I don't like at all.

Has anyone else compared different pressings that are often touted as being different masterings, only to find out they were the same anyway?

Ask yourself this: "Has anyone else compared different pressings that are often touted as being different masterings, only to find out they were the same, and still insisted that they were different masterings?" For gosh sakes, if the two are perfectly in sync, they had to at least come from the same digital master, which throws any talk of using a "better source" out the window. And if they are bit for bit identical, it has to be the same mastering, even if we generously allow the possibility of them sounding different due to some other unknown factor.

[lukpac]

Assuming that two versions are indeed different masterings, it only stands to reason that there could be track to track differences. For example, if one mastering tweak, like EQ, is applied to the whole album, the EQ will sound better on some tracks than others, yes? This is even more true if each track gets its own distinctive EQ. This analysis can be taken even further, down into sections of tracks, but I (arbitrarily) limit it to tracks, as that makes a compilation easier to do!

Honestly, for original albums (vs comps), it's pretty rare that I find this the case. As long as both/all versions were mastered "as a unit", I usually like one entire CD over another. A good exception might be, say, Who's Been Sleeping Here on the Between The Buttons SACD. Many tracks on that disc have noise reduction, but that one doesn't. The general sound isn't vastly different from other versions, but the speed is correct, so I'll take it.

Of course, if one mastering has poorly chosen EQ, or has been heavily NRed, or uses a better source, every track may indeed sound worse and the blanket statement would apply.

And I usually find this the case more often than not. Again, for original albums only.

Has anyone else compared different pressings that are often touted as being different masterings, only to find out they were the same anyway?

Pink Floyd - DSOTM (UD/UDII)
The Who - Tommy (UD/UDII)
The Who - Quad (MCA/Polydor)
The Who - Quad remix (MCA/Polydor)

I'm sure there are more.

[Phil Elliott]

Do I understand correctly that the black triangle CD has pre-emphasis, and the black face Japanese Harvest has not? If so, how could you test if they are from the same digital master?

A Black Harvest or Triangle without TO on the end of the matrix, does have preemphasis.

A Black Harvest or Triangle with TO on the end of the matrix, does not, and is a completely different mastering. In fact, this mastering sounds like crap.

[JWB]

Pink Floyd - DSOTM (UD/UDII)
The Who - Tommy (UD/UDII)
The Who - Quad (MCA/Polydor)
The Who - Quad remix (MCA/Polydor)

I'm sure there are more.

The Who - Odds & Sods (MCA/Polydor)

Plus, the impression that I got from SHtv is that there are TWO masterings of the DSOTM UDI, and one of them is identical to the UDII. That's why there is confusion about them being different/identical.

[Dob]

As long as both/all versions were mastered "as a unit", I usually like one entire CD over another.

I would tend to agree with that. But I wonder how many albums were mastered that way.

When I do my own remastering, I'm tempted to take the easy way out and use one "compromise" EQ for the whole thing. Almost always, this results in one or two tracks sounding pretty bad...like if I am gently boosting the treble and a couple of tracks not only didn't need it, but could've used a treble cut. So I end up going back and tweaking the EQ curve more towards the centered "compromise" position. If I have to do this more than a couple of times, I figure I might as well do a separate EQ for each track, even if I do end up using the same EQ curve for more than one track. Using Cool Edit, I have to work on each track separately anyway.

I don't know if the pros do anything like that, but I do hear track to track differences fairly often. Anyhow, the point is that they do happen, and someone who never hears them is not listening carefully, or (most likely, IMO) listening only to one or two tracks and passing judgement based on that.

[Rspaight]

So now there are two different Black Harvest versions AND two UDs, too?

We've got:

Black Triangle V1
Black Triangle V2
Black Harvest V1
Black Harvest V2
(Silver) Harvest (did this exist, or were they all black?)
(Silver) Capitol
UD V1
UD V2
UDII
Shine On box
20th Anniversary
EMI/Capitol remaster
SACD

Fuck it. I like Obscured By Clouds better, anyway.

(Krab, is this a good thread crap?)

Ryan

[lukpac]

Plus, the impression that I got from SHtv is that there are TWO masterings of the DSOTM UDI, and one of them is identical to the UDII. That's why there is confusion about them being different/identical.

When was THAT theory floated?

Sounds like someone making an excuse for people realizing the UD and UDII (THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A UD1/UDI) are actually the same. "If you say your copies are the same, I *must* have a different UD."

[Dob]

A Black Harvest or Triangle without TO on the end of the matrix, does have preemphasis. A Black Harvest or Triangle with TO on the end of the matrix, does not, and is a completely different mastering.

Yes, that appears to sum it up. It explains everything, even the "Ticket To Ride" thing.

In fact, this mastering sounds like crap.

To my ears, this mastering has some treble boost, which IMO helps on Speak to Me/ Breathe and On The Run, but which sounds really bad when the vocals start on Time (and other tracks). It also is boosted, which results in audible clipping during the alarm clock bells in Time. For my comp version, I did some splicing on that track, using both the Harvest and the UD1.

[krabapple]

So now there are two different Black Harvest versions AND two UDs, too?

We've got:

Black Triangle V1
Black Triangle V2
Black Harvest V1
Black Harvest V2
(Silver) Harvest (did this exist, or were they all black?)
(Silver) Capitol
UD V1
UD V2
UDII
Shine On box
20th Anniversary
EMI/Capitol remaster
SACD

Fuck it. I like Obscured By Clouds better, anyway.

(Krab, is this a good thread crap?)

Ryan

The best DSotM out there is the stereo SACD layer, and if don't have a SACD player you'll NEVER GET TO HEAR IT. Ha . Ha.

Actually, if anyone wants it, I could do an SACD-->PCM convert of the disc. It will of course destroy the SACD magic, as Grant says, but you tin-eared chumps won't know the difference.

And Pink Floyd sucked anyway, after Syd left. Ask yourself, which version of PF did the BEATLES like best. I rest my case.