Religion in government is evil

Expect plenty of disagreement. Just keep it civil.
Dob
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Postby Dob » Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:15 pm

lukpac wrote:And what about other religions' theories of the history of the world. What makes the Christian view the only one that matters?

Which is why I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. And which is why I avoid pushing my beliefs on others -- because I don't want anyone to push his beliefs on me. Not only do I not want the ten commandments to be displayed down at the county courthouse, I fully support the laws making that illegal. Because, if someday the majority religion in the US is Islam, I don't want to see the Koran down there either.

Publicly proclaiming your religion to be the true religion, like some Christians want to do, automatically carries with it a corollary proclamation that all other religions are false. And one might boldly proclaim further that "God does not hear the prayers of Jews" -- which is guaranteed to stir up hatred.
Dob
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Postby Rspaight » Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:18 pm

Because, if someday the majority religion in the US is Islam, I don't want to see the Koran down there either.


I wish more people were that far-sighted.

Disestablishment is what made America unique when it was founded. It's still one of our best assets.

Ryan
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Postby lukpac » Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:25 pm

Dob wrote:Because, if someday the majority religion in the US is Islam, I don't want to see the Koran down there either.


That's something I wish more people could understand, but unfortunately I don't think ever will.
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:44 pm

The sticker is obviously intended to reduce evolution to the status of "something people just believe without good reason." Rigorously defining the term "theory" in a scientific context (see above links and definitions) should be part of any decent science curriculum. After such a lesson, any student should see that the sticker is insulting, even if their faith prevents them from accepting the science in this area.

And that's why the sticker is bad. Anyone who successfully completes a science class should see it for the anti-intellectual hogwash that it is. It has nothing to do with explaining the controversy, and merely sets up a false equivalence between faith and reason which honors neither.

Here's how I would word such a disclaimer:

This textbook discusses the scientific theory of evolution, which is the underpinning for our current understanding of biology and important to many other disciplines. Some religious faiths feel that evolution is incompatible with their teachings, and each person must decide for themselves their own feelings about this fundamental theory. If you feel you need guidance in your personal views toward evolution in the context of your faith, we encourage you to discuss the matter with your family, church or other religious authority. Regardless, the theory of evolution is part of modern science and scientific curricula, and the successful completion of this material will require a working knowledge of it.


Evolution case opens in Georgia court

By Kristen Wyatt

Nov. 8, 2004 | ATLANTA (AP) -- A warning sticker in suburban Atlanta science textbooks that says evolution is "a theory, not a fact" was challenged in court Monday as an unlawful promotion of religion.

The disclaimer was adopted by Cobb County school officials in 2002 after hundreds of parents signed a petition criticizing the textbooks for treating evolution as fact without discussing alternate theories, including creationism.

"The religious views of some that contradict science cannot dictate curriculum," American Civil Liberties Union attorney Maggie Garrett argued Monday before U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper. The trial is expected to last several days.

But a lawyer for Cobb County schools, Linwood Gunn, held up a copy of a textbook's table of contents Monday that showed dozens of pages about evolution.

"The sticker doesn't exist independently of the 101 pages about evolution," Gunn said. "This case is not about a sticker which has 33 words on it. ... It's about textbooks that say a lot more than that."

The stickers read: "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

One of the parents who filed the lawsuit, Jeffrey Selman, said the stickers discredit the science of evolution.

"It's like saying everything that follows this sticker isn't true," he said.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1987 that creationism was a religious belief that could not be taught in public schools along with evolution.

Gunn said he expects the warning will hold up in court, saying it "provides a unique opportunity for critical thinking."

"It doesn't say anything about faith," Gunn said. "It doesn't say anything about religion."
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Dob
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Postby Dob » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:15 pm

Rspaight wrote:After such a lesson, any student should see that the sticker is insulting, even if their faith prevents them from accepting the science in this area...Anyone who successfully completes a science class should see it for the anti-intellectual hogwash that it is.

The sticker is specifically addressing the origin of living things, which I am assuming is a direct reference to speculation (contained in the textbook, which I obviously haven't seen) about how earth made the transition from a sterile environment to one which contained life.

AFAIK, science hasn't come up with anything better than the "primordial soup/spontaneous generation" idea. I don't think that characterizing such an idea as "not fact" is insulting to anyone's intelligence.
Dob

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Postby lukpac » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:11 am

Honestly I don't remember much talk at all about the origin of living things. Much more emphasis is placed on "there were living things, and they evolved."
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Postby Xenu » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:24 am

Evolution need not have any particular theory about abiogenesis contained therein. Putting a "disclaimer" in front of a bio textbook on the basis that the current models of the origin of life are unsatisfying is missing the entire point. Evolution isn't concerned with the origin of life, per se. It's concerned with its development.
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Postby Rspaight » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:58 am

I was assuming the vast majority of those 102 pages dealt with the origin of species, not the origin of life.

There is no accepted theory on the origin of life yet, AFAIK. Spontaneous generation is hardly considered authoritative these days. Work is continuing. If the textbook presents a hypothesis on the origin of life as an accepted scientific theory, the book is misleading.

Ryan
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Postby Rspaight » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:51 am

From Britain's The Guardian. I highlighted my favorite quote.

Darwinism vs. "intelligent design"

A school board in suburban Atlanta goes to court to defend its textbook stickers saying that evolution is a theory, not a fact.

By Gary Young

Nov. 9, 2004 | A suburban American school board found itself in court Monday after it tried to placate Christian fundamentalist parents by placing a sticker on its science textbooks saying evolution was "a theory, not a fact."

Atlanta's Cobb County School Board, the second largest board in Georgia, added the sticker two years ago after a 2,300-strong petition attacked the presentation of "Darwinism unchallenged." Some parents wanted creationism -- the theory that God created humans as related in the Bible -- to be taught alongside evolution.

Shortly after the stickers were put on the books, six parents launched a legal challenge, with the support of the American Civil Liberties Union. It started Monday. "I'm a strong advocate for the separation of church and state," one of the parents, Jeffrey Selman, told the Associated Press. "I have no problem with anybody's religious beliefs. I just want an adequate educational system."

The board says the stickers were motivated by a desire to establish a greater understanding of different viewpoints. "They improve the curriculum, while also promoting an attitude of tolerance for those with different religious beliefs," said Linwood Gunn, a lawyer for Cobb County schools.

The controversy began when the school board's textbook selection committee ordered $8 million worth of the science books in March 2002. Marjorie Rogers, a parent who does not believe in evolution, protested and petitioned the board to add a sticker and an insert setting out other explanations for the origins of life. "It is unconstitutional to teach only evolution," she said. "The school board must allow the teaching of both theories of origin."

Her efforts galvanized the fundamentalist community. "God created earth and man in his image," another parent, Patricia Fuller, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "Leave this garbage out of the textbooks. I don't want anybody taking care of me in a nursing home some day to think I came from a monkey."

Wendi Hill, one of the parents who signed the petition, said: "We believe the Bible is correct in that God created man. I don't expect the public school system to teach only creationism, but I think it should be given its fair share."

Cobb County achieved what it believed to be a compromise by adding stickers to the books that read: "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

But secular parents believed the board had been browbeaten. "I'm shocked Cobb County is handling it this way," said Gina Stubbart, who served on the textbook selection committee. "The average person knows evolution is a widely accepted scientific theory."

This year, Georgia's school superintendent, Kathy Cox, removed the word "evolution" from the state's science teaching standards, but she quickly backtracked after receiving nearly 1,000 complaints.

In 1987, the Supreme Court ruled that creationism was a religious belief that could not be taught in public schools along with evolution. Since then creationism has been repackaged as the theory of "intelligent design." This contends that life on earth results from a purposeful design rather than random development and that a higher intelligence is guiding this process. Pennsylvania's Dover-area school board has already voted to teach intelligent design.

The hearing in Georgia will have to establish whether intelligent design is in fact a religious theory, and if so, whether the stickers that mention neither intelligent design nor religion by name violate the separation of church and state.

The issue of creationism in schools has long been a point of contention between fundamentalists and secularists in the U.S. In 1925, John Scopes went on trial for teaching evolution in Dayton, Tenn., in what became known as the "monkey trial." It ended with Scopes being fined $100 for violating a Tennessee law that forbade the teaching of "any theory that denies the story of divine creation as taught by the Bible and to teach instead that man was descended from a lower order of animals."
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Postby lukpac » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:42 pm

"The school board must allow the teaching of both theories of origin."


There are only two?
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Postby Rspaight » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:18 pm

http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html

I'd actually sign up to take a class that covers all this. It's fascinating stuff.

If it popped up in a science class, though, I'd ask for my money back.

Ryan
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Postby Dob » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:49 pm

Rspaight wrote:If the textbook presents a hypothesis on the origin of life as an accepted scientific theory...

Now that I think about it, I have to agree that is unlikely. Whenever I've seen such ideas, they have always been presented as speculation.
Dob

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Postby Sound » Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:42 pm

Rspaight wrote:
Image



Ryan



Methinks about 44% of Americans should watch 'Nova' more often. There is proof of life in North America for at least 16,000 years.
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Postby Patrick M » Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:58 pm

A good listen regarding the "intelligent design" debate:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4178920
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Postby Xenu » Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:13 am

Thanks for the link. That ID guy is slimey...he dodges questions constantly, emphasizes "SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE." Ick.
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