Juan Cole Gets It

Expect plenty of disagreement. Just keep it civil.
Dob
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Postby Dob » Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:07 pm

lukpac wrote:Well, it's already legal in Nevada. And regulated by the government.

AFAIK, it's legal in only one county...and since that county is now becoming more and more populated, there is growing pressure to move that unsavory business out even further into the desert.

But what I'm asking is, do you think we should make it legal everywhere? Is that a good idea?
Dob
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"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:18 pm

It might be, I don't know. It's a bit like the drug argument.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:04 pm

How do you guys feel about the legalization (or the decriminalization) of prostitution?


I don't think there's a place for consensual crime in a "free" society. Criminalizing victimless acts undermines personal responsibility ("if it's legal, it must be OK") and creates huge and dangerous criminal organizations to provide the banned services/products. The "war on drugs" has brought more damage to society than drugs.

I believe drugs, prostitution and private gun ownership (among other things) should all be decriminalized and well-regulated. Polygamy, homosexuality, and any other sexual/social arrangements between consenting adults should be legal.

You can make excellent cases that drugs, prostitution and private gun ownership are all "bad choices." However, it is not government's place to make those choices for us.

Ryan
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Patrick M
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Postby Patrick M » Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:06 pm

Ryan, did you come out "libertarian left" on this, by chance?

http://politicalcompass.org/
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Postby Rspaight » Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:16 pm

Yep, solidly.

Ryan
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Patrick M
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Postby Patrick M » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:04 pm

Would you be surprised if I told you I came out the same?
Chuck thinks that I look to good to be a computer geek. I think that I know too much about interface design, css, xhtml, php, asp, perl, and ia (too name a few things) to not be one.

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:15 pm

Guess I'm even more Libertarian/left than before:

11/02:
Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -7.03

Today:
Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.79
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:21 pm

Wow, I'm an even bigger commie pinko than I thought:

Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.26

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:40 pm

:D :) :lol: :shock: :wink: :mrgreen:
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Matt » Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:55 pm

Why not...

Economic Left/Right: 1.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.51
-Matt

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:55 am

There's hope for you yet. You're almost there!

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

Dob
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Postby Dob » Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:16 am

I found myself answering "strongly agree/disagree" to about 80% of the questions, and because my extremes swing both ways I expected my score to be reasonably close to zero, which it was (-2.88/-2.51).

Here are a few "agree/disagree" questions of my own that I find to be exceptionally difficult:
1. It is wrong to force the grasshopper to work, but it is OK to force the ant to help him.
2. Becoming a smoker, or not fastening your seat belt, is your own business because you hurt no one but yourself.
3. Bad people weren't born bad -- their environment made them that way.

And here's one especially for all you commie pinko libertarian "John Lennon/Imagine fans":
The world would be a better place without people who have strong religious beliefs.
Dob

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"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

Dob
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Postby Dob » Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:43 am

Rspaight wrote:...drugs, prostitution and private gun ownership...it is not government's place to make those choices for us.

I'm surprised you threw "private gun ownership" in there...most liberals would go apoplectic hearing that suggestion.

There is a little something in my political and moral views to offend just about everybody...and I'm thinking yours are the same. (insert sound of Dob giving Ryan a high five).
Dob

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Patrick M
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Postby Patrick M » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:19 pm

Becoming a smoker, or not fastening your seat belt, is your own business because you hurt no one but yourself.

This is tricky.

Secondhand smoke is an issue, but not an issue if people smoke in their own homes.

Smoking could also affect health case costs across the board. And if an uninsured person gets hurt in a wreck, we may end up footing the bill for that person.

And either activity could shorten a lifespan, which would affect not only the individual, but their family, friends, and community as well.
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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:31 pm

It is wrong to force the grasshopper to work, but it is OK to force the ant to help him.


That sounds similar to a question on the test (something like "If someone is able to work and chooses not to, s/he shouldn't expect help from the gov't").

That's indeed a tough one. On the surface, yes, anyone who can work should, and I have little sympathy for those who are too "laid back" to work and still expect to live on the public dime.

However, life is rarely that clean-cut. "Bowling for Columbine" had a particularly good example of a situation where forcing someone to work for their benefits was actually a worse situation than the alternative. (Single mom leaving her young kid with irresponsible family while she worked, where the kid eventually found a gun, took it to school, and shot a classmate.)

I tend to agree with the sentiment, but feel a simple-minded application of that sentiment can be negative in the real world. As with many social policy questions, people's perceptions (of welfare queens driving Cadillacs to pick up their checks) are often more powerful than real-world experience.

In the online test, I think I chose "agree," but not "strongly agree."

Becoming a smoker, or not fastening your seat belt, is your own business because you hurt no one but yourself.


Definitely agree.

There are caveats in both those cases, though. For smoking, I'm against public smoking because it harms others. Even if you set aside secondhand smoke (which I think is becoming convincing, but still with some doubts), there are many who are simply allergic or asthmatic for home public smoking does real harm.

For seat belts, it could be argued that not wearing seat belts drives up insurance costs. That can be addressed within the insurance system, though.

Bad people weren't born bad -- their environment made them that way.


Wow, if I knew the answer to that...

While I don't believe that people are complete "tabula rasa" at birth, it seems foolish to say that their experiences and upbringing don't play a huge part in the way they behave as adults. At root, though, the question seems to imply a desire to place blame somewhere -- on the person or on "society." A favorite straw man of the right seems to be the liberal who lets criminals off the hook by "blaming society."

People have to be responsible for the their actions, but not to ignore the influence of poverty and racism (to name two factors) on crime is short-sighted.

The world would be a better place without people who have strong religious beliefs.


Would the world have been better off without Mother Teresa? I doubt it (although there are those that claim her anti-contraception dogma increased suffering in the areas she worked in). Would the world have been better off without Martin Luther King, Jr.? Without Gandhi?

Strong religious beliefs in and of themselves aren't bad -- it's what one chooses to do with them. If one uses them as inspiration to try to help people and create a better, more just world, that's one thing. If one instead tries to "save" everyone else by forcing them to behave in certain ways that benefit no one but a particular God, that's another.

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney