We need a FORMAT WAR thread (or twelve)

Just what the name says.
thomh
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Postby thomh » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:45 pm

Anybody know fer sure whether the Redbook portion on the Stones and Dylan SACDs is downsampled or a separate mastering?

I cannot believe that these ol' master tapes has any life above 20kHz or a dynamic range over 90dB. Heck, I bet them Stones tapes fall off around 15kHz. So in a perfect world, that SACD and CD portion should essentially sound the same.
Thom

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:02 pm

Don't know about Dylan, but the Stones discs use SBM Direct, which I believe is Sony's system for downconverting.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Rspaight » Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:07 pm

Thom, have you listened to the Dylan discs yet? I'm curious if there really is any difference at all, or if all those drugs I did in high school are catching up to me.

I'd be surprised if the Dylans weren't downconverted, but I have no hard evidence of it.

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

thomh
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Postby thomh » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:26 am

Rspaight wrote:Thom, have you listened to the Dylan discs yet? I'm curious if there really is any difference at all, or if all those drugs I did in high school are catching up to me.

I'd be surprised if the Dylans weren't downconverted, but I have no hard evidence of it.

Ryan


I will check out Nashville, BOTT and Slow Train over the next few days. I also have Stones' Beggars Banquet and LIB so I will check these as well.
Thom

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Postby Mike Hunte » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:38 am

Rspaight wrote:
I'd be surprised if Dylan weren't hard, but I have no hard evidence of it.


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Postby Ron » Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:51 am

Rspaight wrote:
As far as sound goes, I really don't care. I tend to believe that most "differences" are in people's heads.


Getting the optimal aural experience out of either of these high-res formats requires careful attention to the holistic whole of your "rig," with precise optimization needed to complement the unique character of each.

The "streaming" nature of DSD means that for truly exceptional SACD performance, you must ensure that the sound can "flow" from player to processor to amp to speaker in as unimpeded a way as possible. Gravity is the key. Using extremely low resistance CriscoQuest teflon-core digital and analog interconnects ($780/ft, plus regular applications of Shakti CableLube, $200/oz) helps, but you're simply not hearing the full potential of the medium unless the signal chain is oriented correctly to allow the "Direct Stream Digital" to proceed with minimal gravitational interference.

To wit, the player must reside above the external processor (if used, and highly recommended -- a custom DigiLink 8000DSD, $6700, is my favorite, which in turn requires the matching proprietary DigiLink 8000SACD transport, $6500), which in turn must reside above the pre-amp, which must be installed above the amp, which must be in a plane above the speakers. Obviously, to maintain proper imaging, especially in multichannel applications, this will require creative installation techniques.

The best solution is to utilize SoundFlow mounting brackets. These fit into the natural 90 degree angles formed by the ceiling and walls in your listening room. (If your ceiling and walls are not exactly true, hire a competent contractor to realign them. You can save money here by not having to repaint the areas behind the SoundFlow mounts!) Your components then slot into custom made SoundFlow component sleeves (cost dependent on exact dimension of your gear) which in turn latch into the SoundFlow brackets, both enforcing the ideal vertical alignment in the "y" plane, and also the "precise sound arc" in the "z" plane as described in Sony research papers.

This mounting scheme does have the downside of making manipulation of the control panels and loading of the SACD discs difficult. (Obviously, you're not using low-end gear with infrared remotes that corrupt the natural argon levels in the room required for pure sound transmission, right?) The solution is the AuditionHoist system, $20,000 installed. This consists of an ergonomically correct sling into which the listener is installed. This attaches to an elaborate (and sonically neutral) pulley rig connected to a hydraulic lift (in a separate sound-proofed room). (We recommend installing a separate power feed for the lift to avoid interference with your audio system. Contact a competent electrician for assistance.) Using a wired remote (remember, no infrared!), the listener can maneuver him or herself to any point in the room, in three dimensions. This has the double benefit of (1) allowing precise placement in the stereo or multichannel "sweet spot," and (2) allowing access to high-mounted components.

With proper mounting of equipment, good cables (freshly lubed), and your ears dangling in the precise spot in space, SACD will truly come alive. You may even find yourself physically affected by the experience. (This will pass.)

I have thoughts on DVD-A setup, if anyone's interested.

Ryan


". . . careful attention to the holistic whole of your "rig" . . ."

"Gravity is the key."

"To wit, the player must reside above the external processor . . ."

"The best solution is to utilize SoundFlow mounting brackets."

"(Obviously, you're not using low-end gear with infrared remotes that corrupt the natural argon levels in the room . . ."

Most of this sounds like you just made it up. But if you're on the level, then might I suggest you add "IMO" after each unsupportable statement? Can't say as your argument would be any stronger but your credibility might improve somewhat. IMO.
Dr. Ron :mrgreen:TM "Do it 'till you're sick of it. Do it 'till you can't do it no more." Jesse Winchester

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:09 am

That would be wholly redundant. Everyone here already knows that all my opinions come from somewhere In My Orifice.

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

Ron
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Postby Ron » Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:58 pm

In My Orifice, indeed. Well, back to the topic: Redbook rules!
Dr. Ron :mrgreen:TM "Do it 'till you're sick of it. Do it 'till you can't do it no more." Jesse Winchester

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:20 pm

I prefer Good Housekeeping.

Ryan
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Postby krabapple » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:15 pm

Rspaight wrote:I prefer Good Housekeeping.

Ryan



The sad/funny thing is that it's not impossible to mistake your spoof for a sincere 'audiophile' post. That's a measure of how scientifically impovershed the hobby is.

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Postby Ron » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:20 pm

krabapple wrote:The sad/funny thing is that it's not impossible to mistake your spoof for a sincere 'audiophile' post. That's a measure of how scientifically impovershed the hobby is.

Spoof?

HEY GUYS RYAN'S STARTED ANOTHER FORMAT WAR OVER AT THE MIKE HUNTE THREAD! SEE POSTS LEAVE YOUR MONITOR AND FALL TO THE FLOOR!
Dr. Ron :mrgreen:TM "Do it 'till you're sick of it. Do it 'till you can't do it no more." Jesse Winchester

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Postby Rspaight » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:57 pm

krabapple wrote:The sad/funny thing is that it's not impossible to mistake your spoof for a sincere 'audiophile' post. That's a measure of how scientifically impovershed the hobby is.


It's hard to make fun of audiophilia because they do such a good job themselves. (See also "hat rack.")

I think it's because it's a hobby where the results are often *completely* subjective. "I don't care what your computer says! Computers can't hear! The UDI is better! Lalalalalala!" I mean, if you're into hot rods, what works is what cuts tenths of seconds off your quarter mile. Period. If you're into woodworking, it's pretty obvious what tools work and which don't. With computers, the results are *extremely* measurable (either overclocking makes it faster or it blows up).

With audio, though, you can convince some people that, oh, I don't know, playing 15 seconds of a CD and then backing up makes an enormous difference in sound quality. I can't make that sort of thing up.

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

thomh
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Postby thomh » Sat Nov 01, 2003 6:48 pm

Audio is just physics and as such can be broken down into its measurable elements. This is hard to swallow for some people who have invested an enormous amount of hard-earned cash into this hobby. It is also quite appearant sometimes that a loss of rational thinking seems to be proportional to this investment.
Thom

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Postby Kjoerup » Mon Feb 02, 2004 9:50 am

My first post at this forum!

Wanna hear the dumbest one of all? True story!

You know, Steve Hoffman actually got all in a huff over my questions and legitimate doubts about the supposed "superiority" of SACD, particularly when I insisted on hitting them with the scientific facts of the matter. He finally, grudgingly (and snappily) admitted that "on current consumer equipment, you won't hear the advantage of SACD, but if you buy this $9000 SACD player you'll experience more 'air'." I kid you not. (I suppose I'll need Grover supercables in order to force that ÜberAir unimpeeded through that pinball maze of dirty, shifty electrons that lesser cables are bound to be infected by.)

Christ, I am so fed up with the smug self-righteousness, blind hero worship and banal idiocy at that creepy cult-like forum. (sigh)

thomh
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Postby thomh » Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:17 pm

Kjoerup wrote:My first post at this forum!

Wanna hear the dumbest one of all? True story!

You know, Steve Hoffman actually got all in a huff over my questions and legitimate doubts about the supposed "superiority" of SACD, particularly when I insisted on hitting them with the scientific facts of the matter. He finally, grudgingly (and snappily) admitted that "on current consumer equipment, you won't hear the advantage of SACD, but if you buy this $9000 SACD player you'll experience more 'air'." I kid you not. (I suppose I'll need Grover supercables in order to force that ÜberAir unimpeeded through that pinball maze of dirty, shifty electrons that lesser cables are bound to be infected by.)

Christ, I am so fed up with the smug self-righteousness, blind hero worship and banal idiocy at that creepy cult-like forum. (sigh)


First of all, welcome!

Was this comment from SH part of a forum thread or a private mail?

Anyways, sounds like the usual audiophool snob BS that pervades that forum.

In fact, it's the same snob talk you hear from the vinyl crowd when they argue about *its* superiority.
Thom