Ongoing Rolling Stones thread
I guess it just seems odd. Seems like someone is saying Chess stereo "good" RCA stereo, in most cases, "bad". All of the Chess tracks released in stereo at some point in the past are in stereo on the SACDs. Thats a *huge* difference from the pre-aftermath RCA tracks that have shown up in stereo at some point, no?
No intent to hijack. This just hit me on the head last night.
No intent to hijack. This just hit me on the head last night.
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lukpac
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Aftermath wrote:I guess it just seems odd. Seems like someone is saying Chess stereo "good" RCA stereo, in most cases, "bad". All of the Chess tracks released in stereo at some point in the past are in stereo on the SACDs. Thats a *huge* difference from the pre-aftermath RCA tracks that have shown up in stereo at some point, no?
Let's see:
Everybody Needs Somebody To Love (LP only)
Play With Fire (MFSL LP/London CD only)
Satisfaction (MFSL LP/London CD only)
Get Off Of My Cloud (MFSL LP/London CD only)
That's it, really, unless you count *unreleased* stuff. I still wonder why those 3 were only ever made available by MFSL - why weren't they on vinyl ages ago? Then again, if you ask that question, you have to include The Last Time, 19th and Mother.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
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lukpac
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And he's dead, right? Or is that just Belkin?
The person we did talk to from MFSL didn't do any of the digital masters. David, do you remember if he addressed any of the specific versions? I'd have to go back and look in my archives.
The person we did talk to from MFSL didn't do any of the digital masters. David, do you remember if he addressed any of the specific versions? I'd have to go back and look in my archives.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
'dyou guys all see this on SH.Tv? (I knwo luke did...the rest of you probably did at some point, since the interview is from 2003)
I wasn't aware that Ludwig was working from DSD masters rather than the original master tapes....so he had no say at all in whether the correct source was used. Or maybe I was at some point, but forgot it.
I wasn't aware that Ludwig was working from DSD masters rather than the original master tapes....so he had no say at all in whether the correct source was used. Or maybe I was at some point, but forgot it.
More from that interview:
MusicTAP: Were you pleased with the Rolling Stones reissues and the reactions, both commercially and critically, to them?
Bob Ludwig: Jody Klein, the Senior Vice-President of ABKCO who was responsible for the project and the rest of the team, Teri Landi from ABKCO, Steve Rosenthal from the Magic Shop and the other transfer engineers in the UK were all thrilled. I have had many people come up to me and tell me that these records have made them listen to music again. What they mean is, as professionals, we hear a lot of music but seldom get a chance to kick-back and put something on and just listen for enjoyment!! This was about the highest compliment I could ever receive. As you probably know, even one title like "Hot Rocks" outsold every other SACD and DVD-Audio disc ever made combined!!
MusicTAP: Why did you choose the controversial option of transferring the Rolling Stones to Direct Stream Digital instead of mastering from the original analog masters?
Bob Ludwig: I did not choose a thing, I had zero to do with that decision.
ABKCO had embarked on an archiving program of their master tapes to DSD. When they decided to do the Stones re-mastered set they decided to send me masters that were already quality controlled for no drop-outs, no sticky splices, best source, etc. etc. It took about 4 months of fitting it into my schedule as it was, if I had be given the analog sources, which I would have been glad to work with, it would have been intolerably expensive and much longer. I was pleased to work with the SACD tapes, it kept me much more fresh for the important creative work and not bog me down with the physical decisions. With the Meitner converters on the most high resolution monitoring system one can not reliably pick the master vs. the copy.
"I recommend that you delete the Rancid Snakepit" - Grant
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lukpac
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krabapple wrote:I wasn't aware that Ludwig was working from DSD masters rather than the original master tapes....so he had no say at all in whether the correct source was used. Or maybe I was at some point, but forgot it.
That's what I had generally assumed considering the credits in the discs. ABKCO (and folks in the UK like Astley) did the digital transfers (to PCM?), Rosenthal did "restoration" (whatever that was) and Ludwig just took all of that and mastered it.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
FYI on the SACDs (from the press release)
Restoration Producer: Jody H. Klein
Sound Restoration and Archive Coordinator: Steve Rosenthal/the Magic Shop
Analog to Digital Transfers and Tape Archive Research: Teri Landi
Mastering: Bob Ludwig/Gateway Mastering
DSD Engineer: Gus Skinas
Additional Tape Archive Research: Jane Byrne and Mick McKenna
Additional Analog To Digital Transfer: Jon Astley and Pascal Byrne
Production Assistants: Maria Papazahariou and Laura Walton
I sent an e-mail to Teri Landi (through someone else) asking about a few things. Not sure anything wiil come back, but I'll post if it does.
Restoration Producer: Jody H. Klein
Sound Restoration and Archive Coordinator: Steve Rosenthal/the Magic Shop
Analog to Digital Transfers and Tape Archive Research: Teri Landi
Mastering: Bob Ludwig/Gateway Mastering
DSD Engineer: Gus Skinas
Additional Tape Archive Research: Jane Byrne and Mick McKenna
Additional Analog To Digital Transfer: Jon Astley and Pascal Byrne
Production Assistants: Maria Papazahariou and Laura Walton
I sent an e-mail to Teri Landi (through someone else) asking about a few things. Not sure anything wiil come back, but I'll post if it does.
lukpac wrote:krabapple wrote:I wasn't aware that Ludwig was working from DSD masters rather than the original master tapes....so he had no say at all in whether the correct source was used. Or maybe I was at some point, but forgot it.
That's what I had generally assumed considering the credits in the discs. ABKCO (and folks in the UK like Astley) did the digital transfers (to PCM?), Rosenthal did "restoration" (whatever that was) and Ludwig just took all of that and mastered it.
Ludwig says he got 'SACD tapes' so I assume it was a DSD transfer.
"I recommend that you delete the Rancid Snakepit" - Grant
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lukpac
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Right. I just don't know if all the original transfers were DSD or not - if the "DSD Engineer" was Gus Skinas, what did Teri Landi and Jon Astley do? Or did they transfer to some type of hi-res PCM first or something?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
This was posted back in 2002 on SHTV (I think you dug this up Luke). I edited out as much of the enthusiasm as possible to make it readable.
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Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 2:32 AM
To: Undercover List
Subject: The upcoming Stones ABKCO re-masters (LONG)
Firstly, the Magic Shop in New York (www.magicshopny.com) was equipped
to do two tasks:
A. evaluate every tape;
6. carry out "flat" transfers of the ABKCO archives.
Jody Klein and Teri Landy of ABKCO and Steve Rosenthal of Magic Shop had the job of evaluating every tape in the ABKCO archive. Only the best tapes have been used, and the original masters have been found for over 90% of the tracks. In order to help the evaluation, we set up a wide array of equipment at the Magic Shop. For replay of these delicate (and in some cases nearly 40 years old) tapes we had two different tape machines: a Mike Spitz custom made ATR Service Company ATR-102 with ARIA discrete class-A reference series electronics (see: http://www.atrservice.com/atr/company.htm) and a customized vintage Ampex 300 with both mono and stereo tube (valve) amplifier modules. Each tape was audition on both, and then the best used. (I had given a copy of the FAQ Part IV to Steve Rosenthal, and he has assured me that it has proved invaluable to them in determining which tapes to look for.)
The tape machines fed a distribution amplifier especially made by audio guru Ed Meitner for this project. The distribution amplifier split and matched the output of the tape deck so that we could feed several targets simultaneously. One feed went directly to the monitors, one to a Sonic Solutions HD system (with Mytek 24/96 converters), one to a Sony Sonoma Direct Stream Digital workstation (with latest generation DSD converters made by Ed Meitner), and the fourth went to another custom Spitz ATR-102 tape machine. The 24/96, DSD and second Spitz machines were all used as recorders. Given the age (and value) of the master tapes, one wants to play them as few times as possible. So, in this system we were able to play the master and simultaneously re-record it to three different recording systems (24/96, DSD and 30 i.p.s. 1/2" analogue) with absolute level matching between all systems. These transfers were all done "flat" so as to create clones of the masters (to preserve the music for the future).
Bob Ludwig [worked] with Jody Klein, to evaluate the selected masters against vinyl to ... match the feel of the vinyl records. They listened to the vinyl on Bob's Rockport Technologies turntable, and mastered the SACDs to match the feel of the vinyl records. Bob basically just applied the necessary equalization.
The Stones [supplied] tapes in some cases...the CD layers for these discs [were] made from ... SACD masters
In terms of the mono/stereo issue, the general trend [was] that where true stereo masters could be found, they have been used on the albums, except on the Singles Collection.
Dem
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We asked Rosenthal what his favorite upgrades might be. "Both Between the Buttons and Beggars Banquet are greatly improved," he says. "And the real stereo mixes we found and used on The Rolling Stones Now! are just startling."
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ABKCO called on Jon Astley to help locate the best master tapes available in London and throughout Europe.
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--------------------------------------
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 2:32 AM
To: Undercover List
Subject: The upcoming Stones ABKCO re-masters (LONG)
Firstly, the Magic Shop in New York (www.magicshopny.com) was equipped
to do two tasks:
A. evaluate every tape;
6. carry out "flat" transfers of the ABKCO archives.
Jody Klein and Teri Landy of ABKCO and Steve Rosenthal of Magic Shop had the job of evaluating every tape in the ABKCO archive. Only the best tapes have been used, and the original masters have been found for over 90% of the tracks. In order to help the evaluation, we set up a wide array of equipment at the Magic Shop. For replay of these delicate (and in some cases nearly 40 years old) tapes we had two different tape machines: a Mike Spitz custom made ATR Service Company ATR-102 with ARIA discrete class-A reference series electronics (see: http://www.atrservice.com/atr/company.htm) and a customized vintage Ampex 300 with both mono and stereo tube (valve) amplifier modules. Each tape was audition on both, and then the best used. (I had given a copy of the FAQ Part IV to Steve Rosenthal, and he has assured me that it has proved invaluable to them in determining which tapes to look for.)
The tape machines fed a distribution amplifier especially made by audio guru Ed Meitner for this project. The distribution amplifier split and matched the output of the tape deck so that we could feed several targets simultaneously. One feed went directly to the monitors, one to a Sonic Solutions HD system (with Mytek 24/96 converters), one to a Sony Sonoma Direct Stream Digital workstation (with latest generation DSD converters made by Ed Meitner), and the fourth went to another custom Spitz ATR-102 tape machine. The 24/96, DSD and second Spitz machines were all used as recorders. Given the age (and value) of the master tapes, one wants to play them as few times as possible. So, in this system we were able to play the master and simultaneously re-record it to three different recording systems (24/96, DSD and 30 i.p.s. 1/2" analogue) with absolute level matching between all systems. These transfers were all done "flat" so as to create clones of the masters (to preserve the music for the future).
Bob Ludwig [worked] with Jody Klein, to evaluate the selected masters against vinyl to ... match the feel of the vinyl records. They listened to the vinyl on Bob's Rockport Technologies turntable, and mastered the SACDs to match the feel of the vinyl records. Bob basically just applied the necessary equalization.
The Stones [supplied] tapes in some cases...the CD layers for these discs [were] made from ... SACD masters
In terms of the mono/stereo issue, the general trend [was] that where true stereo masters could be found, they have been used on the albums, except on the Singles Collection.
Dem
------------------
We asked Rosenthal what his favorite upgrades might be. "Both Between the Buttons and Beggars Banquet are greatly improved," he says. "And the real stereo mixes we found and used on The Rolling Stones Now! are just startling."
------------------
ABKCO called on Jon Astley to help locate the best master tapes available in London and throughout Europe.
-----------------
Last edited by Aftermath on Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.