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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:12 am

Rspaight wrote:Isn't NR just a very particular, specialized kind of EQ?


Well...no.

I mean, what's the *practical* difference between digital EQ and digital NR?


The general idea of digital NR is to *not* change the EQ of the music itself. Get rid of the hiss while leaving the music intact. EQ out the hiss, and you've EQ'd the music too.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:22 pm

Luke, let's take an extreme case: a hissy recording with no *musical* content above X kHz. Say, an old cassette tape, or a 78. Are you claiming that digital NR simply could not be used to reduce the hiss at X or above without also negatively affecting the music?

Note too that CEDAR an NoNoise aren't the only noise reduction algorithms ( though I'm sure they're very good) . If you've worked at all with things like Cool Edit, you know that there is a VAST number of possible configurations for a noise reduction pass. And NR can be used to remove a narrow band of noise across the length of the track, as well as for broadband, and of course there's yet another algorithm for declicking.
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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:47 pm

krabapple wrote:Luke, let's take an extreme case: a hissy recording with no *musical* content above X kHz. Say, an old cassette tape, or a 78. Are you claiming that digital NR simply could not be used to reduce the hiss at X or above without also negatively affecting the music?


If that was the case, why not just use a top shelf EQ?

Do you know of such a case? I'd like to hear one.

Note too that CEDAR an NoNoise aren't the only noise reduction algorithms ( though I'm sure they're very good) . If you've worked at all with things like Cool Edit, you know that there is a VAST number of possible configurations for a noise reduction pass. And NR can be used to remove a narrow band of noise across the length of the track, as well as for broadband, and of course there's yet another algorithm for declicking.


Again: DECLICKING IS SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

I've heard various Cool Edit jobs as well.

Again, if you believe there's a recording out there that's artifact free, I'd like to hear it.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby CitizenDan » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:50 pm

Possibly an ignorant question, but:

Isn't today's noise-reduction technology intelligent enough to not only discern noise from music, but also to show the user graphically where each resides in a waveform, so that the noise can be worked on without touching the music? Or do noise and music exist in separate frequencies so seldom that this isn't feasible?
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Postby krabapple » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:59 pm

Luke, I've proposed a question about degradative artefacting and digital hiss reduction on Massenburg's prosound forum -- hopefully I'll get some feedback. Check it out and let me know if the question needs any rewording to reflect your view properly --

http://tinyurl.com/5d95n
Last edited by krabapple on Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby lukpac » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:01 pm

Looks fine to me. Keep us updated.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby krabapple » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:01 pm

It occurs to me too that the 'harmlessness' of any digital NR can be tested formally by adding hiss to a recording, then applying digital NR, then comparing the original to the de-hissed file. Could be an interesting thing to try.

Citizen Dan, some algorithms try very hard to do just that -- distinguish a noise 'profile' from non-noise (presumably music). The debate is over how successful these are . Noise and music definitely overlap in most recordings, which is what makes 'clean' broadband NR difficult.
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Postby Phil Elliott » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:07 pm

CitizenDan wrote:Possibly an ignorant question, but:

Isn't today's noise-reduction technology intelligent enough to not only discern noise from music, but also to show the user graphically where each resides in a waveform, so that the noise can be worked on without touching the music? Or do noise and music exist in separate frequencies so seldom that this isn't feasible?


The trouble with noise (more specifically, hiss), is it tends to be random in nature. 1) It actually covers quite a wide frequency range, and 2) there's no mechanical repetition to it, like there is with hum for example. So when a noise reduction algorithm takes a snapshot of a segment of tape hiss, by nature it's only going to be an approximation of what will actually be "reduced".

Take that to the next level then, and compare the range of frequencies of tape hiss with the frequencies from, say, a snare drum rattle. There's not a lot of dfference. Practical example? Take Come Together from the Abbey Road CD, load that into your computer and sync it with the same song from the Blue CD. The Blue CD has a lot of hiss removed, but have a listen to what it has done to the drum kit aswell.

It doesn't matter how "intelligent" an algorithm is - if no two bits of hiss are the same and it goes for something that is "close enough", how is it suposed to avoid hacking into the music? If a bit of hiss has gone, then ...
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Postby krabapple » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:12 pm

Threshold values and masking come into play, though. We can't hear *every* change made to complex sound. No one disputes that NR *can* audibly affect the music as well as the noise, so the Abbey Road vs. Blue comp merely indicates an example of when it does. The quesiton is whether it can ever either 'do no audible harm' to the music -- or ever make it sound *better* (which is really the intent of NR, by increasing the contrast between forground and background).
"I recommend that you delete the Rancid Snakepit" - Grant

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Postby RDK » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:27 pm

You guys are all idiots.

Here's how I explain it, mathematically, to my 3-year old kids... :roll:

Dolby NR encoding: 10+2=12
Dolby NR decoding: 12-2= 10

Digital NR: 10-1=9

Got it now?
ray

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Postby Phil Elliott » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:32 pm

That just about sums it up.
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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:35 pm

RDK wrote:Dolby NR encoding: 10+2=12
Dolby NR decoding: 12-2= 10

Digital NR: 10-1=9


Perhaps more like:

Dolby encoding: X+A=Z
Dolby decoding: Z-A=X

X is the music, and is a variable. A is a constant. Z is what's on the tape.

Digital NR: Z-Y=X

Z is what's on the tape. It's a variable. Y is the hiss. Also a variable. X is what was put down on tape. Also a variable.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:22 pm

Is this the 'math rock' I keep hearing so much about?
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Postby Crummy Old Label Avatar » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:00 pm

If there's one thing that internet forums have taught me, it's that music doesn't matter. Mastering and the Holy Tape Hiss are the only things that count, apparently :roll:
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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:03 pm

nt
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