Official Election Night Thread

[Gee Oh Are Tea]

Actually a Bush win will be great for tourism here in Toronto. Within the next few years, I'm planning to set up package trips offering all-inclusive services such as:

- flu shots and prescription drugs
- gay weddings (none of that civil union shit - REAL weddings and licenses)
- abortions ('cause they'll be banned soon)
- stem cell innoculations
- trips to the CD shop for non-country and non-gospel music (due to the pending ban on rock music)
- two-star accomodation for draft dodgers

Let me know if you need anything.

Cliff

[dudelsack]

Folks, people voted bullshit in this election, and did so proudly and with full awareness of what they were doing. The challenge to the center and left in this country to find a cure for bullshit, and this election proved we don't have one.

How do you tell middle america that they've been bamboozled? People don't like being told they've been not just wrong, but stupid.

[Ess Ay Cee Dee]

On the surface, what you say sounds correct. But the Republicans have been smarter than we think. Look at their message and the states that they won. They talked at the level of all the morons that live in the South, the Heartland and farming country.

Well, it's tough for me to stand up for my countrymen after seeing the pathetic results of this election, but I have to take exception to some of what you're saying.

This country is far more complex than many "outsiders" seem to think. I know you're not saying that *all* Southerners, Midwesterners, etc. are stupid, but it kind of comes across that way. I've lived in the so-called Heartland my whole life, and I can vouch for the fact that not everyone in farming country is a knee-jerk, reactionary, drooling idiot. The problem is that the ones who are tend to get out and vote in much larger numbers than their more "progressive" neighbors.

I tend to agree with Michael Moore when he says that a majority of Americans have "liberal" views about a number of issues. However, 9/11 and the Republican fear machine have convinced many otherwise rational people that we must isolate ourselves from the world and pursue our old-West brand of revenge. GOP propaganda is clearly working. Unfortunately, there is no liberal propaganda to counter it.

This is not a nation of idiots, though it may seem that way at times. Those of us who haven't been hypnotized by orange alerts and other conservative bullshit need to regroup and take our country back.

[Rspaight]

How do you tell middle america that they've been bamboozled? People don't like being told they've been not just wrong, but stupid.

You make them think it's not their fault, but Bush's -- that he didn't live up to what he promised them. (And I'm going to guess that there will be plenty of examples in the next four years of ways Bush has screwed the country.)

You've got to *demonstrate* the immorality of the Iraq war, of the Patriot Act, of banning civil unions, of giveaway tax cuts to the rich, of all this shit they're pulling. Not just point to it, but *show* that it's unjust and wrong. And plant the seed that maybe voting "morals" is less important than voting policy, because morals are great for guiding the individual conscience but disastrous as law, and you can better judge a candidate's "moral values" by examining his policy rather than his piety.

It ain't easy or quick, but it's the only way forward. It's going to require patience and perseverence. (Think of how long the loony right labored through the 70s and 80s and 90s to get where they are today. That's the road before us.)

Sadly, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Ryan

[dudelsack]

Eventually the right will get fat and complacent like the left did. But when? By 2008? 2012? During my lifetime?

Fuck!

[Ess Ay Cee Dee]

John Kerry just conceded. Stick a fork in it, it's done.

[Gee Oh Are Tea]

This country is far more complex than many "outsiders" seem to think. I know you're not saying that *all* Southerners, Midwesterners, etc. are stupid, but it kind of comes across that way. I've lived in the so-called Heartland my whole life, and I can vouch for the fact that not everyone in farming country is a knee-jerk, reactionary, drooling idiot. The problem is that the ones who are tend to get out and vote in much larger numbers than their more "progressive" neighbors.

You're very likely correct, and I apologize if I've seemingly made a blanket statement.

However, to an "outsider" like me (and the rest of the world that have observed the U.S. very closely for the past three years), it often comes across as if a great number of Americans outside of the major cosmopolitan centres (such as NY, LA, Chicago, Miami & Boston) are bible-toting, nationalistic simpletons. It's not fair or representative but that's what is visible to the outside world.

I would say that Americans are selectively liberal. The religion and the Constitution is what prevents most Americans from being actual liberals or progressives (I mention the Constituton because that's what many Americans cite as their justification for their drooling hunger for guns, as unseen in ANY other civilized country). Religion, of course, is the major factor for the intolerance of many Americans (be it religious, racial or sexual intolerance). On the hand, the Baptist-attending Miss America from Alabama walks around in a bathing suit that barely covers her privates.

Right now, "outsiders" are looking at the map of where the electoral college votes went, and there are no states close to being what we view as an "intelligent place not inhabited by a majority of hee-haws" (a perception, I admit). The major centres for education and commerce all seemed to vote Democrat (Houston and Dallas notwithstanding because they're in Texas, home of Dubya). Hence, the concluson that the "red" states are those inhabited by a bunch of straw-hat wearing, Sunday school-attending, "Islamist"-hating rednecks (this being grossly unfair to people like you).

Cliff

[Ess Ay Cee Dee]

Believe me, I don't doubt for one minute that the rest of the world sees us that way, and generally for good reason.

I am stunned that otherwise rational people, not just in the South and Midwest, but everywhere, voted for Bush. My mother-and-law and sister-in-law are two of them. They are two of the angriest pro-Bush, anti-liberal Americans I've ever seen and for the life of me I can't figure out why. I'm through talking with them about politics. It's too goddamn frustrating--if a political discussion ensues, I have to leave the room.

There is a mindless anger boiling away in the innards of many Americans. Some of it is misdirected 9/11 angst and some of it is completely inexplicable. These are some scary-ass times we're living in. However, unlike so many other Americans, I'm not leaving in fear of dying in another terrorist attack. I'm living in fear of what is happening to my civil rights, my economy, women's reproductive rights, freedom from religion, etc., etc.

[Gee Oh Are Tea]

There is a mindless anger boiling away in the innards of many Americans. Some of it is misdirected 9/11 angst and some of it is completely inexplicable. These are some scary-ass times we're living in.

This is exactly what we non-Americans think is responsible for the lack of rationale in the thinking of a majority of Americans. 9-11 must of spooked Americans so badly that they are now afraid of their own shadow - if Bush tells them (actually he tells them that the shadow is not due to the sun's position but due to "shadowy Islamists").

I guess as outsiders, we have fully taken in the various American escapades from all of the deaths in Viet Nam to Reagan bombing and killing Ghaddafi's baby daughter in 1986 to providing the weaponry for the Israeli occupation. We saw 9-11 as an extension of that. 3000 people died because a group of people took exception to US Foreign Policy. It's quite simple to us. Tragic? Absolutely. Terrorism? Sure thing. Just due to "evil"? No way. Americans who vote for Bush, however, don't know or believe their own country's role in the events leading up to 9-11. That's the difference between us outsiders (and probably American moderates) and Bush supporters.

Cliff

[Rspaight]

Americans who vote for Bush, however, don't know or belive their own country's role in 9-11.

Even suggesting that 9/11 was caused by anything other than random "evil" is considered equivalent to confessing a fondness for molesting small children.

In the simple-minded public discourse, the concept of "America may have done things to enrage people sufficiently to carry out henious, inexcusable acts of violence" does not compute. We're the freedom-loving, do-no-wrong good guys, and 'they're" just evil for no reason at all (but probably because they don't love Jesus as much as we do). Most people don't understand the difference between "creating the conditions for" and "being responsible for."

(By no small coincidence, this is *exactly* the same situation as when Gore [rightly] said that he created the conditions for the emergence of the modern Internet, and people thought he was taking credit for "inventing" the Internet.)

Ryan

[Ess Ay Cee Dee]

It broke my heart to watch Kerry's concession speech. Maybe it has something to do with a lack of sleep and a mild hangover, but this is the first time a presidential election has almost moved me to tears.

[Gee Oh Are Tea]

It broke my heart to watch Kerry's concession speech. Maybe it has something to do with a lack of sleep and a mild hangover, but this is the first time a presidential election has almost moved me to tears.

No doubt it has also reduced a number of Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians and Lebanese (stray missiles meant for Syria!!) to tears (though more to do with the bombs about to fall on their heads). And Sharon will probably fire up the bulldozers and diggers first thing tomorrow to excavate some more prime Palestinian land.

Cliff

[Rspaight]

Apparently, this "moral values" stuff is going to be quite the meme du jour.

Here's a living example of the Moral Values voter, from Dan Froomkin's chat today:

I'm an African-American female who is a registered democrat. I voted for George Bush, because I am also a believer in the Word of God. Although I don't agreed with a lot of decisions he made over the last four years, as a Christian his belief in God and open confession of his beliefs persuaded me to vote for him. I think you will find a lot of people voted because of morale values versus party affiliation. I think we are better off with a president who has a biblical foundation and is not a shame to admit he hears from God. With the help of God we can get through anything. Kerry didn't offer me the same assurance. Thank you for allowing me to speak.

Any questions?

I also liked this exchange:

In a Red State with the Blue-State Blues: How, how, how...? How could Kerry run intellectual circles around Bush in the first debate and lose? How could Kerry continue to look and act presidential in the second and third debates and lose? How could such a commanding knowledge of the issues by Kerry turn into an election day victory for Bush? If only I could get out of Texas and back to my home state of California or up to the elitist Northeast!

Help me understand how the majority of voters thought when they were in their respective polling places yesterday... I'm doing such a deep headscratch this morning!

Dan Froomkin:What you are seeing is that there are a lot of voters who simply don't value the same things you apparently value.

And this:

Dumfries, Va.: Aren't we becoming a theocracy, the same as the Arab countries run by radical religious zealots?

I see that we're becoming what we've been condemning in the Middle East.

Your thoughts?

Dan Froomkin: So we're spreading the gospel of democracy among theocracies, while our democracy is turning us into a theocracy?

That would be ironic.

And, finally, I will perversely end with the first question.

Fort Worth, Tex.: I'm deeply troubled by the media reports that people's voting based on "moral values" led them to vote Bush/Cheney. Is this not really a euphemism for judgmental, far-right social policy such as anti-choice and anti-homosexual, and aggression in foreign policy? And personally, both Bush and Cheney have highly immoral business practices in their background, as well as substance abuse on the part of our moral leader. Unless I'm missing something, I'm appalled by what passes for morality in our national conscience.

Dan Froomkin: That's quite a question.

But I think you're right that with "morality" suddenly appearing as the number one issue in the presidential election (if you believe the exit polls, more on that later) then we as a nation are obliged to openly and fully address what the heck "morality" means.

I'm guessing that this morning, there are a lot of Democrats who would like to reclaim the term.

Ryan

[Ess Ay Cee Dee]

"Moral values." Don't any of these fucking morons see the inherent immorality in the Bush administration? God damn!

Forty years of booze, blow and general fuck-upery (nice word, huh?) are completely negated by a conversion to fucking born-again Fundamentalist Christianity.

How much longer until the non-Christian internment camps are set up across the country?

[Rspaight]

How much longer until the non-Christian internment camps are set up across the country?

Ask Michelle Malkin. I'm sure she has great moral values.

Ryan