Evolution, Creationism, and Intelligent Design

Let's talk about various types of religion.
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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:02 am

Of course that's true today. But in the context of this discussion, where we are talking about "what if's" that are way beyond our current capabilities, don't you think that it's possible in theory? I mean, you allowed the possibility of someday being able to build a human being.


Interesting question. I guess I have no real grounds to say that it's completely impossible.

Ryan
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Thesia
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Postby Thesia » Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:18 am

Patrick M wrote:
Rspaight wrote:If you're asking whether the concept that we are somehow transcendent of our own bodies is an illusion, then yes, I think it is.

Paging Ryan's wife....

I like to think that the concept of Ryan is occasionally an illusion as well... :wink:

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Postby krabapple » Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:42 pm

Thesia: But do you have any grounds to say that he's completely impossible?

Dob: FWIW., yes my posts are too sloppy, though I do try to edit them to show quotes and stuff properly. And yes, creationists exasperate me generally, because, like you, they seem to want to jump into the fray without having done the background reading, and lack knowledge even of some basics...and so they usually end up attacking some cartoon version of science in general and evolutiuonary biology in particular -- neither of which are so simple in reality. If you are really interested in pursing these questions in depth, I've pointed you to books, to a newsgroup, to a website. On the latter two you can actually engage in more discussion with highly knowledgeable people (though I can only really vouch for the Usenet group).

As a paying member of the NCSE I'm happy toa lso point you at the resources here:

http://www.natcenscied.org/
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Postby Thesia » Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:27 pm

krabapple wrote:Thesia: But do you have any grounds to say that he's completely impossible?



That depends on your definition of "impossible." Is he possible in the sense of existing as a defined entity named Ryan? Yes, of course, although it's also possible that I merely conjured the idea of said entity. On days when he's supposed to do his chores, I tend to believe the latter.

And, naturally, when he insists on listening to his iPod in shuffle mode he's being completely impossible.

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:41 pm

'Intelligent design' taught in Pennsylvania
Wednesday, January 19, 2005 Posted: 11:35 AM EST (1635 GMT)

HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania (AP) -- High school students heard about "intelligent design" for the first time Tuesday in the Pennsylvania school district that attracted national attention by requiring students to be made aware of it as an alternative to the theory of evolution.

Administrators in the Dover Area School District read a statement to three biology classes Tuesday and were expected to read it to other classes on Wednesday, according to a statement from the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan, which was speaking on the district's behalf.

The district is believed to be the only one in the nation to require students to hear about intelligent design -- a concept that holds that the universe is so complex, it had to be created by an unspecified guiding force.

"The revolution in evolution has begun," said Richard Thompson, the law center's president and chief counsel. "This is the first step in which students will be given an honest scientific evaluation of the theory of evolution and its problems."

The case represents the newest chapter in a history of evolution lawsuits dating back to the Scopes Monkey Trial in Tennessee nearly 80 years ago. In Georgia, a suburban Atlanta school district plans to challenge a federal judge's order to remove stickers in science textbooks that call evolution "a theory, not a fact."

The law center is defending the Dover district against a federal lawsuit filed on behalf of eight families by two civil-liberties groups that alleged intelligent design is merely a secular variation of creationism, the biblical-based view that regards God as the creator of life. They maintain that the Dover district's curriculum mandate may violate the constitutional separation of church and state.

"Students who sat in the classroom were taught material which is religious in content, not scientific, and I think it's unfortunate that has occurred," said Eric Rothschild, a Philadelphia attorney representing the plaintiffs in the federal lawsuit.

Biology teacher Jennifer Miller said although she was able to make a smooth transition to her evolution lesson after the statement was read, some students were upset that administrators would not entertain any questions about intelligent design.

"They were told that if you have any questions, to take it home," Miller said.

The district allowed students whose parents objected to the policy to be excused from hearing the statement at the beginning of class and science teachers who opposed the requirement to be exempted from reading the statement. About 15 of 170 ninth-graders asked to be excused from class, Thompson said.

A federal judge has scheduled a trial in the lawsuit for September 26.
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Postby Dob » Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:24 pm

krabapple wrote:And yes, creationists exasperate me generally...

From my perspective (at the receiving end), I perceived exasperation giving way to anger as the discussion progressed. This is common in many religious and political issues, and this topic touches on elements of both. Progress comes to a halt when either side, or both sides, stop listening and start shouting.
...because, like you, they seem to want to jump into the fray...

If by "the fray," you are referring to the teaching of creationism in schools, I told you my position on that. If you are referring to this thread, I thought we were having a somewhat snappish (but that's OK) exchange of opinions in the spirit of discovery, not locked in a "winner take all" showdown.

I find it curious, though, that you seem to be more emotionally attached to your position than I am to mine. One would guess that the reverse would be true.
...without having done the background reading...and so they usually end up attacking some cartoon version of science...

I was expecting that you would give me some credit for the hours I spent reading the material on talkorigins...oh well. But if you feel that the characterization of "design by humans" as "intelligent design" is a cartoon version of science, take it up with the talkorigins folks. They said it, not me.
...you can actually engage in more discussion with highly knowledgeable people...

I'd like to find one that is patient and tolerant as well.
As a paying member of the NCSE, I'm happy to also point you at the resources...

From the NCSE resources page, under "tips":

Humor is helpful. A funny, entertaining letter is much more memorable than an angry or sarcastic one.
Be civil. You want to persuade, not bludgeon. Be friendly advisors, not hostile critics.
Dob
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Postby krabapple » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:08 pm

And yes, creationists exasperate me generally...

From my perspective (at the receiving end), I perceived exasperation giving way to anger as the discussion progressed. This is common in many religious and political issues, and this topic touches on elements of both. Progress comes to a halt when either side, or both sides, stop listening and start shouting.


Around the time you started jeering at the use of technical terms like 'abiogenesis', you mean?

Sorry, the 'you aren't being nice enough to me' defense just doesn't cut it here...not for you, not on lukpac.org. And I do generally enjoy your posts (that zinger about Bob Dylan was the funniest post I've seen here in a week). You've demonstrated that you can dish it out and I'm pretty sure you can *take* it too. I suggest you get over your somewhat unconvincing reticence to find a possibly more patient, possibly more tolerant interlocutor and pose your questions on a forum literally devoted to them: talk.origins on usenet.

I give you credit for being open to reading up on scientific side of the 'intelligent design' debate, but I don't see the *evidence* that you''ve spent hours doing it, on talkorigins.org or elsewhere . I don't see how you can have done that, and still keep posing your questions as if it's *science* that has to define 'design' and 'intelligent design'. Science doesn't say that there *can't* be a god (which is, let's be honest, the 'intelligent designer' being alluded to). Creationists claim there *must* be. Where does the burden of explication, defining terms, and proof lie here?


At any point in your hours of reading, did you read this? It's from the talkdesign sub-site of talkorigins. Notice how the definition attempts to describe what *ID* advocates say ID is.
Nowhere is there an attempt at a 'scientific' definition.

Q. What is Intelligent Design?

A. The beliefs of ID advocates vary greatly. But the core beliefs which they all appear to share are the following:
(a) The action of an intelligent (presumably conscious) being was involved in the evolution of living organisms.
(b) There already exists empirical evidence of this action, sufficient to justify a scientific inference that such action occurred.
The term "Intelligent Design" usually refers to these beliefs together with the arguments which are made in support of them.

It is important to note that people who hold belief (a) but not belief (b) do not generally consider themselves to be advocates of ID, and this web site has no quarrel with such people. It is the claim that there is empirical evidence of design in biology which has provoked a controversy, and which we consider to be false. We argue that this claim is based on pseudoscience, and enjoys the support it does only because it appeals to the religious and/or ideological beliefs of its adherents.


I also find *this* rather appropriate here:

Q. Is Intelligent Design a form of creationism?
...
A major distinguishing feature of ID is the attempt to shift the focus of the debate away from the details of Earth history and towards more abstract concepts such as "design" or "teleology", terms which are rarely used in a non-question-begging manner. Unlike Young Earth Creationism, which is very easy to falsify, ID is difficult or impossible to test according to standard scientific practice. This gives the ID movement a tactical advantage by allowing its adherents to argue from a position that holds no testable affirmative beliefs, yet allows them to attack almost any aspect of evolutionary theory they think might be vulnerable. Note that this does not make ID a better theory than creationism; many argue that this renders ID even less scientific.



As for my emotional attachment: did you see the post before yours? I'm a biologist (and an early signatory to 'Project Steve' , which you can read about on that same talkdesign page). I'd by lying if I said that the sort of crap going on in Dover, and the constant pitter-patter of 'critique' from people with a religious/spiritual agenda who really don't know whereof they speak re: science, is intensely *exasperating* to me, on both a professional and personal level.
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Postby Dob » Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:33 pm

krabapple wrote:Around the time you started jeering at the use of technical terms like 'abiogenesis', you mean?

If that's what started the downward spiral, I apologize (that wasn't my intent), but you seemed to take it in stride. I didn't get the impression that you were getting bugged until you slammed me for borrowing a "what if" from science fiction. Actually, I still wasn't sure...but after your reaction to my (admittedly lame) attempt to joke about it, I knew the gloves were off.
Sorry, the 'you aren't being nice enough to me' defense just doesn't cut it here...not for you, not on lukpac.org.

My comments were meant to be taken in a larger sense, about the whole evolution/creation debate. There's too much shouting and not enough listening, on both sides. I rarely get involved in these kinds of discussions, but I'm thinking that you probably do (more than me, anyway), and I was offering my perceptions so that you would have a better understanding of how others might react to you.

Sure, I'm disappointed at how things turned out, but my feelings weren't hurt. I am a self-described smartass/asshole. I don't think I'm an idiot, but if you want to call me ignorant or uninformed, I can't protest too much.
I give you credit for being open to reading up on scientific side of the 'intelligent design' debate, but I don't see the *evidence* that you''ve spent hours doing it, on talkorigins.org or elsewhere.

Did I mention that I'm also a slow reader?
I don't see how you can have done that, and still keep posing your questions as if it's *science* that has to define 'design' and 'intelligent design'.

Clearly there's a communication gap here. Chances are, if we were able to have a proper conversation, instead of exchanging posts, we could straighten this out. But there it is.
A major distinguishing feature of ID is the attempt to shift the focus of the debate away from the details of Earth history and towards more abstract concepts such as "design" or "teleology", terms which are rarely used in a non-question-begging manner....This gives the ID movement a tactical advantage by allowing its adherents to argue from a position that holds no testable affirmative beliefs, yet allows them to attack almost any aspect of evolutionary theory they think might be vulnerable.

It's precisely those qualities that make for a lively discussion, IMO. But that's probably the smartass in me talking.
As for my emotional attachment: did you see the post before yours?

Yes, I read every post in threads that I start.
I'm a biologist...I'd by lying if I said that the sort of crap going on in Dover, and the constant pitter-patter of 'critique' from people with a religious/spiritual agenda who really don't know whereof they speak re: science, is intensely *exasperating* to me, on both a professional and personal level.

To me, the political implications of (inevitably) dragging the Bible (or bibles) into science class are far more disturbing and relevant than any arguments about scientific theories, regardless of how one feels about evolution or creation. In this case, I'm on your side.
Dob

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Postby krabapple » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:37 am

Your civility shames me. So, should we hug it out?
"I recommend that you delete the Rancid Snakepit" - Grant

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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:56 am

krabapple wrote:Your civility shames me. So, should we hug it out?


I certainly hope this isn't going to lead to feverish dreams where you guys listen to Steve Hoffman CD's together in your bedroom.

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Postby Dob » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:50 pm

Rspaight wrote: That's what I mean by different levels of self-awareness. Defining "free will" is difficult because not everyone perceives the same thing as "free will." In any event, it's impossible to say objectively whether "free will" is an illusion because we cannot objectively assess it.

While I was thinking about this and how to respond, I realized that these questions have been pondered many times over the centuries by minds superior to my own. So rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, I thought it would be best (as a starting point, at least) to consider arguments that have already been made.

IMO the phrase "free will" is redundant since the will cannot exist without at least a degree of freedom. The action of a salmon swimming upstream to spawn does resemble very "willful" behavior, but since the salmon is slavishly obeying instinct it cannot be thought of as exercising will. If we define will as "the determination to actualize desire," then "desire" must be understood as a dynamic entity that we constantly adjust according to our individual perceptions of reality, not as a static entity that is programmed into us. Of course, humans do have biological urges (the subconscious mind), but these are under (at least partial) control by the will (the conscious mind), which is (at least partially) independent of these urges.
Personally, I think it's all biology...

Would it be accurate to say that you are a determinist (all events have causes)? Your statement reminds me of reductionism, which goes roughly as follows: philosophy can be successfully reduced to psychology, which can be reduced to biology, which can be reduced to chemistry, which can be reduced to physics. In other words, all phenomena, regardless of how complex, are determined or even theoretically predicted by physical laws.

This raises a number of paradoxes, namely “If my actions have been determined, am I free? If I am not free, am I responsible for my actions? If I am not responsible for my actions, then are the concepts of praise, blame, morals, and ethics meaningless?" Some of these paradoxes are discussed here.

"Soft” determinists do accept the concepts of praise and blame, and therefore the compatibility of will with determinism. They attempt to explain the paradox this way: since all events are sufficiently (completely) caused, all of our decisions, regardless of which we choose to make, are also sufficiently caused (by various internal and external causes). As long they are not compelled, they are “free.” I put free in quotes since determinists posit that there is only one possible outcome due to sufficient cause. In addition, they posit that true freedom is a practical impossibility, due to the numerous factors (heredity, environment, etc.) that constantly exert influence over us.

Determinists reject the concept of “first cause” or (“causeless cause”) for two reasons. The first reason is that it implies a supernatural agent that is independent of empirical causes (physical laws), and the second is that a “causeless cause” is simply a rewording of random, which is a very weak definition of freedom as applied to the will.
If you're positing a source for "will" outside the physical body, that's serious metaphysical stuff.

I feel that I can now articulate my view.

Like the soft determinists, I accept the concept of responsibility for our actions as a necessary one. But while I agree with their view that idealized, true freedom to act (freedom from all cause) is a practical impossibility, I reject their idea of a (pre)determined result, which IMO concludes that all freedom is an illusion.

I subscribe to Kant’s definition of freedom to act, which is “spontaneous originality, or the ability to initiate a new causal series.” I would take that a step further in that I recognize degrees of freedom, which would be reflected in the size, if you will, of the resulting new causal series.

Kant's idea is clearly a “first cause” idea. How does Kant counter the two objections of the determinists?

Kant acknowledges man’s ability to reason and defines reason as “dealing with the possibility and not actuality of experience.” It deals with ideas, with what ought to be, and can consider what is not, what has not been, and what could be, or couldn’t be. By contrast, the (empirical) physical world is determined by physical processes, which are completely defined by “what was” and “what is.” Therefore, the ability to reason cannot exist in the reality that we perceive, or empirical reality.

If we accept this, than we can also reject the argument that a causeless cause is necessarily random. Since reason does not exist in empirical reality, we cannot definitively apply concepts that are based on empirical reality.

Kant thought of empirical reality as an incomplete picture of the true reality of the material universe, and that reason existed in the portion of reality (a different plane) that we cannot perceive. By doing so, it seems like he was trying to avoid stating that reason necessarily has its origins in the supernatural. I think that reason, and consciousness, do have their origins in the supernatural (or spiritual). This type of thinking is a part of dualism.
Dob

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Postby Xenu » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:26 pm

This is all so very Hegelian.
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Postby Dob » Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:33 pm

Xenu wrote:This is all so very Hegelian.

(sigh) More reading for me...
Dob

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Postby Rspaight » Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:17 am

I'm not up to thinking that much this weekend. I will get back to you...

Ryan
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Postby chrischross » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:01 pm

"Intelligent Design" -- just another way for the right wing to shove religion down our throats:

http://columbianwatch.blogspot.com/2005 ... ver-4.html