Evolution, Creationism, and Intelligent Design

Let's talk about various types of religion.
Dob
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Postby Dob » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:41 pm

"You know, there is actual difference between male and female brains," he told me from his study, his wife downstairs clattering dishes.

What's that supposed to imply? That in true equal marriage, the husband would be the one "clattering dishes"? The author made a strong enough case against Gilder -- he didn't need to take a (probably) innocuous situation and try to twist it into something meaningful.
Dob
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Postby chrischross » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:28 am

From http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041222.html:

The First Reason Intelligent Design Is Not a Scientific Theory: Conflating Uncertainty with Error

First, insofar as it offers itself as a critique of standard Darwinian evolution, intelligent design cherry-picks uncertainties at the edge of our knowledge, and asserts that these undermine our core understandings. But the fact that some phenomena remain unexplained by natural selection hardly shows that natural selection--which provides a powerful organizing principle for vast swaths of biological data--will not eventually provide the best account of these phenomena.

Consider an analogy. Our best current understanding of gravity remains mysterious because the most ambitious efforts to unify gravity with other forces in the universe--comprising so-called superstring theories or M-theory--have not been empirically tested. Yet that hardly calls into question the principal analytical tools of modern physics.

If the intelligent designers were to apply the same criticisms to physics that they apply to evolution, they would have to say that gravity, too, is "just a theory." However, the fact of Darwinian evolution is as real as the fact of gravity. To be sure, our understanding of each phenomenon is incomplete, but the scientific approach to plugging gaps in our knowledge is not to create a new-anti-theory that dismisses the underlying phenomenon.

Dob
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Postby Dob » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:35 pm

I found the arguments contained in his "second reason" to be stronger:
...for an account of such (supernatural) phenomena to qualify as science, it must do more than simply posit an intervention from outside the ordinary natural order. It must also explain how the intervening agent interacts with the natural world. Otherwise, it is simply an article of faith rather than a scientific explanation.

Although proponents of intelligent design insist that they accept non-supernatural possibilities, such as extraterrestrials, I would accept the above assessment as making the proper point about ID.

However, I get the strong impression that statements like "In both biology and physics, in other words, supernatural phenomena may be conceivable..." are defining "supernatural" as not transcending the laws of nature, but following either unknown natural laws or known natural laws in ways we don't understand. Scientific people seem (understandably) uncomfortable with the idea of an "order of existence beyond the empirical universe."

I think that is the larger question...is the empirical universe "all there is"? And I would agree that exploring that question is appropriate for a philosophy class, not a science class.
Dob

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"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:14 pm

On a somewhat related note. I read today in the NY Times that some museums and science centers in the South are refraining from showing IMAX films that reference the Big Bang, an old age for the earth, or evolution, due to complaints from the Jeebus crowd and out of fear of controversy.

Pathetic. That's just fucking pathetic. And if the "Intelligent Design" movement triumphs, we can expect more of it.
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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:50 am

Here ya go.

You know, living in Kentucky, I often get annoyed that the only time the rest of the country hears about us is in the context of religious dipshittism and/or redneck stereotyping.

Now I feel like that about the whole damn country in relation to the world community.

A New Screen Test for Imax: It's the Bible vs. the Volcano
By CORNELIA DEAN

The fight over evolution has reached the big, big screen.

Several Imax theaters, including some in science museums, are refusing to show movies that mention the subject - or the Big Bang or the geology of the earth - fearing protests from people who object to films that contradict biblical descriptions of the origin of Earth and its creatures.

The number of theaters rejecting such films is small, people in the industry say - perhaps a dozen or fewer, most in the South. But because only a few dozen Imax theaters routinely show science documentaries, the decisions of a few can have a big impact on a film's bottom line - or a producer's decision to make a documentary in the first place.

People who follow trends at commercial and institutional Imax theaters say that in recent years, religious controversy has adversely affected the distribution of a number of films, including "Cosmic Voyage," which depicts the universe in dimensions running from the scale of subatomic particles to clusters of galaxies; "Galápagos," about the islands where Darwin theorized about evolution; and "Volcanoes of the Deep Sea," an underwater epic about the bizarre creatures that flourish in the hot, sulfurous emanations from vents in the ocean floor.

"Volcanoes," released in 2003 and sponsored in part by the National Science Foundation and Rutgers University, has been turned down at about a dozen science centers, mostly in the South, said Dr. Richard Lutz, the Rutgers oceanographer who was chief scientist for the film. He said theater officials rejected the film because of its brief references to evolution, in particular to the possibility that life on Earth originated at the undersea vents.

Carol Murray, director of marketing for the Fort Worth Museum of Science and History, said the museum decided not to offer the movie after showing it to a sample audience, a practice often followed by managers of Imax theaters. Ms. Murray said 137 people participated in the survey, and while some thought it was well done, "some people said it was blasphemous."

In their written comments, she explained, they made statements like "I really hate it when the theory of evolution is presented as fact," or "I don't agree with their presentation of human existence."

On other criteria, like narration and music, the film did not score as well as other films, Ms. Murray said, and over all, it did not receive high marks, so she recommended that the museum pass.

"If it's not going to draw a crowd and it is going to create controversy," she said, "from a marketing standpoint I cannot make a recommendation" to show it.

In interviews, officials at other Imax theaters said they had similarly decided against the film for fear of offending some audiences.

"We have definitely a lot more creation public than evolution public," said Lisa Buzzelli, who directs the Charleston Imax Theater in South Carolina, a commercial theater next to the Charleston Aquarium. Her theater had not ruled out ever showing "Volcanoes," Ms. Buzzelli said, "but being in the Bible Belt, the movie does have a lot to do with evolution, and we weigh that carefully."

Pietro Serapiglia, who handles distribution for the producer Stephen Low of Montreal, whose company made the film, said officials at other theaters told him they could not book the movie "for religious reasons," because it had "evolutionary overtones" or "would not go well with the Christian community" or because "the evolution stuff is a problem."

Hyman Field, who as a science foundation official had a role in the financing of "Volcanoes," said he understood that theaters must be responsive to their audiences. But Dr. Field he said he was "furious" that a science museum would decide not to show a scientifically accurate documentary like "Volcanoes" because it mentioned evolution.

"It's very alarming," he said, "all of this pressure being put on a lot of the public institutions by the fundamentalists."

People who follow the issue say it is more likely to arise at science centers and other public institutions than at commercial theaters. The filmmaker James Cameron, who was a producer on "Volcanoes," said the commercial film he made on the same topic, "Aliens of the Deep," had not encountered opposition, except during post-production, when "it was requested from some theaters that we change a line of dialogue" relating to sun worship by ancient Egyptians. The line remained, he said.

Mr. Cameron said he was "surprised and somewhat offended" that people were sensitive to the references to evolution in "Volcanoes."

"It seems to be a new phenomenon," he said, "obviously symptomatic of our shift away from empiricism in science to faith-based science."

Some in the industry say they fear that documentary filmmakers will steer clear of science topics likely to offend religious fundamentalists.

Large-format science documentaries "are generally not big moneymakers," said Joe DeAmicis, vice president for marketing at the California Science Center in Los Angeles and formerly the director of its Imax theater. "It's going to be hard for our filmmakers to continue to make unfettered documentaries when they know going in that 10 percent of the market" will reject them.

Others who follow the issue say many institutions are not able to resist such pressure.

"They have to be extremely careful as to how they present anything relating to evolution," said Bayley Silleck, who wrote and directed "Cosmic Voyage." Mr. Silleck said he confronted religious objections to that film and predicted he would face them again with a project he is working on now, about dinosaurs.

Of course, a number of factors affect a theater manager's decision about a movie. Mr. Silleck said an Imax documentary about oil fires in Kuwait "never reached its distribution potential" because it had shots of the first Persian Gulf war. "The theaters decided their patrons would be upset at seeing the bodies," he said.

"We all have to make films for an audience that is a family audience," he went on, "when you are talking about Imax, because they are in science centers and museums."

He added, however, "there are a number of us who are concerned that there is a kind of tacit overcaution, overprotectedness of the audience on the part of theater operators."

In any event, censoring films like "Volcanoes" is not an option, said Dr. Field, who said Mr. Low, the film's producer, got in touch with him when the evolution issue arose to ask whether the film should be altered.

"I said absolutely not," recalled Dr. Field, who retired from the National Science Foundation last year.

Mr. Low said that arguments over religion and science disturbed him because of his own religious faith. In his view, he said, science is "a celebration of what nature or God has done. So for me, there's no conflict."

Dr. Lutz, the Rutgers oceanographer, recalled a showing of "Volcanoes" he and Mr. Low attended at the New England Aquarium. When the movie ended, a little girl stood in the audience to challenge Mr. Low on the film's suggestion that Earth might have formed billions of years ago in the explosion of a star. "I thought God created the Earth," she said.

He replied, "Maybe that's how God did it."
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Dob
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Postby Dob » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:05 pm

I love the IMAX movies. I only saw a couple in the theaters, but when I got my HDTV I subscribed to my cable HD package, which includes the INHD channel, and they often show IMAX movies. They look fantastic.
...137 people participated in the survey, and..."some people said it was blasphemous." "I really hate it when the theory of evolution is presented as fact."

Heh. I'd bet their "f*ck off and die" lists are a long as Krab's...and they're probably on each other's lists.
Dob

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Mon May 02, 2005 10:23 am

"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Mon May 02, 2005 11:28 am

And more:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/ ... print.html

(It's Salon, so you might need to watch an ad if you're not a subscriber.)

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Mon May 02, 2005 12:03 pm

The Slashdot of the article Luke posted is pretty lively:

http://tinyurl.com/clmh8

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Thu May 05, 2005 12:01 am

Allow me to plug

www.pharyngula.com

one of the best scientist-blogs around. Creationists served up on a skewer regularly.

Especially loved the entry about 'a nonsensical atheist'. That Guardian article stuck in *my* craw too.

And my god, where has *this* site been all my life?

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/about.htm
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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Thu May 05, 2005 7:54 am

There was a piece on NPR this morning about the Kansas school board getting ready to give the seal of approval to ID. Apparently the scientific community is boycotting the hearings, saying that they refuse to be part of naked propaganda from the ID crowd.

That would seem to be the case, as NPR quoted one school board member who said she'd already made up her mind (in favor of ID) and wanted to hold the hearings so that the public "could hear the evidence against evolution." "I've done my research!" she insisted.

The governor was reportedly "embarrassed." I'll bet.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4631479

Ryan
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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Thu May 05, 2005 11:37 am

Big (and refreshing critical) article on the Kansas creationists in the Washington Post today, with lots of
backtalk from real scientists, and description fo the NCSE (National Center for Science Education, the leading anti-creationist clearinghouse).
"I recommend that you delete the Rancid Snakepit" - Grant

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Xenu
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Postby Xenu » Thu May 05, 2005 2:56 pm

Which WP article is that?
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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Thu May 05, 2005 6:24 pm

RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

RDK
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Postby RDK » Thu May 05, 2005 6:31 pm

krabapple wrote:Allow me to plug

www.pharyngula.com



great link. thanks
ray