John Kerry, the real...... deal?

Expect plenty of disagreement. Just keep it civil.
Ron
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Postby Ron » Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:25 am

An ass I may well be. But I'm noasshole. [This one is waay cool.]
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Postby Rspaight » Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:06 am

I'm speechless.

Ryan
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MK
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Postby MK » Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:09 pm

I don't know how things may have changed over the years or how the military normally treats men who have unusual (if that's an accurate description, I'm not sure) tasks/situations like George W. Bush's situation with working on a political campaign of a family friend (something that may carry more weight due to his father's position), but is it possible the paperwork, permissions or clearance, bureacracy, etc. was just done in a half-assed way and no one really cared all that much about the situation, hence the gaps in the records or, if Bush really did leave without caring about permission, even possible the military just didn't bother to pursue it for one reason or another?

I'm not a Bush supporter, but I'm a little mixed on the gravity of this issue that keeps coming up. Personally, I'm more concerned about the lackluster economy, the unfocused nature of our global security plans, and the growing instability of Afghanistan and especially Iraq (possibly heading for Civil War, especially as they head closer to possible elections and a turn-over of power). Why is the AWOL debate more important than the others? Considering how long ago it was and how it seems to boil down to documentation that may or may not still exist, I wonder how far this issue can actually go.

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Postby czeskleba » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:00 am

MK wrote:Why is the AWOL debate more important than the others?


Of course it's not more important than real issues like the economy and Iraq policy today. It's being pushed because it's a simple issue that Democratic strategists must think is more likely to capture the public's attention than more relevant but complex issues like say Halliburton are. And it's an issue that would be much more likely (than something like the economy) to prompt pro-military people who traditionally vote Republican to switch to Kerry.

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Postby Mike Hunte » Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:40 pm

czeskleba wrote:
Of course it's not more important than real issues like the economy and Iraq policy today. It's being pushed because it's a simple issue that Democratic strategists must think is more likely to capture the public's attention than more relevant but complex issues....


How sad it is the most voters are still ideologically clueless when it comes to punching their ballot. They do, indeed, like it nice and simple. We saw it today. The former frontrunner in the Democratic race, had to drop out because it was more important to the voters that he "yelped" to a crowd over a barely audible PA a month ago, rather than what he stood for. Once the media "told" them (e.g. CNN) that he was a "loose cannon," the usual "I want to ride the tide of the new winning team" mentality took over and the public bailed like a flock of sheep. Kinda like the "Gore must be angry because he clenched his fist," while talking during the debates!

It's a dog and pony show.....
Maybe, J-Lo should run.

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Postby Rspaight » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:14 pm

I never understood the big deal about the "Dean Scream." It seemed perfectly appropriate to me, trying to pump up a bunch of volunteers who had worked their butts off for you in the frozen wasteland of Iowa (and I know all about the frozen wasteland of Iowa) and earned a crummy finish for their efforts despite glowing polls a week earlier. So the guy has real emotions and expresses them instead of mouthing talking points in a blatantly phony "energetic" coached delivery? Hooray! The thing I *most* liked about Dean (speaking as someone who had doubts about his fitness as the nominee back in wild old days of 2003) was his genuineness on the stump. He actually sounded like he believed what he was saying, and that the words were being formed in his brain and sent to his mouth. (As opposed to Kerry, who has the "empty political oratory" voice down pat to a yawn-inducing degree, and Edwards, who clearly honed his faux-populist speaking style in closing arguments for big-money lawsuits.)

If something as completely meaningless as the "Scream" could tank the Dean campaign, you'd think Bush's total lack of verbal ability would have caught up to him by now. Damn liberal media...

Ryan

PS - I saw a clip of Gore the other day absolutely *ranting* about Bush's Iraq deceptions. The man was in a righteous fury and the crowd was going apeshit cheering him on. It was like watching a top-shelf preacher whip himself and his audience into a sweat. Where the hell was this guy in 2000? Probably worried he'd appear undignified or a "loose cannon" or something.
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Xenu
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Postby Xenu » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:43 pm

Rspaight wrote:PS - I saw a clip of Gore the other day absolutely *ranting* about Bush's Iraq deceptions. The man was in a righteous fury and the crowd was going apeshit cheering him on. It was like watching a top-shelf preacher whip himself and his audience into a sweat. Where the hell was this guy in 2000? Probably worried he'd appear undignified or a "loose cannon" or something.



Or get called a phony, which was the general media-line on Gore. Emotion? God, he must've been trained, because everybody knows he's the robot who invented the internet! *larf*
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Postby Patrick M » Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:04 pm

Speaking of the liberal media bias, I thought the cover of yesterday's USA Today was funny. In the middle of the page was an article about how the Bush team was going to paint Kerry as a "liberal, insider, flip-flopper." To the left of that was a picture of Bush hugging a Hispanic worker. Another headline read: "Most economists credit Bush's tax cuts in rebound."

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Postby czeskleba » Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:46 am

Mike Hunte wrote: The former frontrunner in the Democratic race, had to drop out because it was more important to the voters that he "yelped" to a crowd over a barely audible PA a month ago, rather than what he stood for..


What's odd to me is that everyone was pronouncing Dean's candidacy dead a couple weeks ago, while Edwards is somehow still considered a viable candidate, even though Dean in fact has more delegates than Edwards. How does that make sense?

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Postby Mike Hunte » Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:45 am

czeskleba wrote:
What's odd to me is that everyone was pronouncing Dean's candidacy dead a couple weeks ago, while Edwards is somehow still considered a viable candidate, even though Dean in fact has more delegates than Edwards. How does that make sense?


I heard it as late as this morning, right before he threw in the towel. Rueters (or perhaps AP) was reporting that Howie's "third place finish" would surely force him to pack it in with this crushing "defeat". While, at the same time, practically implying that Edwards was virtually neck-in-neck with Kerry....even though he's won a whopping one primary and trailed Dean in the delegate department!

The Dean 'still having the second most delegates fact' was either ignored or shoved at the bottom of most reports.

Tell me the media didn't have an agenda here from the get go. I can't remember a more calculated, orchestrated exercise in recent memory. Dean, as the political outsider, doomed to be wiped away with their magic rhetoric wands.

I might have laughed at the notion a month ago, but I'm actually starting to believe this Skull 'N Bones shit....

And, of course, let's not forget the media's orchestrated hysteria over the "controversial" nature of Mrs. Dean's occupation. "Surely", a worse role model couldn't be had for a First Lady......a doctor, god forbid!

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Rspaight
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Postby Rspaight » Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:10 am

Edwards has actually gained more delegates than Dean via actual votes -- a lot of Dean's delegates are the "superdelegates" that endorsed him before Iowa. Dean has 96 "superdelegates" to Edwards' 26. Edwards has gained 164 delegates via the caucuses and primaries to Dean's 107.

The "superdelegates" can change their allegiance at any time.

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

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Postby chrischross » Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:46 pm

Mike Hunte wrote:
czeskleba wrote:
Tell me the media didn't have an agenda here from the get go. I can't remember a more calculated, orchestrated exercise in recent memory. Dean, as the political outsider, doomed to be wiped away with their magic rhetoric wands.

I might have laughed at the notion a month ago, but I'm actually starting to believe this Skull 'N Bones shit....

And, of course, let's not forget the media's orchestrated hysteria over the "controversial" nature of Mrs. Dean's occupation. "Surely", a worse role model couldn't be had for a First Lady......a doctor, god forbid!


The media had it out for Dean once he indicated that he would work on media consolidation issues back on Meet The Press in December. They already didn't like like him as he refused to play by their rules -- to be "mediagenic" ala Edwards.

I'm real worried that we're going to have four more years of the chimpster if Kerry gets the nomination. Edwards at least is politically smart enough to court Dean supporters. Kerry's idea is that Dean supporters have no where to go but to vote for him. How inspiring. Why do I get the feeling that this is just a set piece stage for our amusement??

czeskleba
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Postby czeskleba » Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:15 pm

chrischross wrote:I'm real worried that we're going to have four more years of the chimpster if Kerry gets the nomination. Edwards at least is politically smart enough to court Dean supporters. Kerry's idea is that Dean supporters have no where to go but to vote for him. How inspiring.


Well, he's right, essentially. Any Dean supporter who doesn't vote for the eventual Democratic nominee is a fool.

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Postby lukpac » Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:01 pm

Yeah, I'm not really sure many of the Dean supporters need "courting" right now. I hardly think many are stupid enough to a) not vote, b) vote for Nader, or c) vote for Bush. Doing anything to let Bush stay in office doesn't seem very logical.

Now, I think I'd prefer Edwards (I voted for him), but I honestly don't see any anti-Kerry movement coming from the left, at least in terms of Kerry vs. Bush (rather than say, Kerry vs. Edwards).
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Postby Rspaight » Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:32 pm

Anybody who lets Bush gets re-elected because they don't think Kerry is progressive enough is a moron. Have we learned nothing from Nader in 2000?

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney