David R. Modny wrote:Jeff,
I'm beginning to think that you have a serious reading comprehension problem. What I told you in this thread is that we can't make religious groups that have established rights in this country feel as if they need to rehabilitate their image, simply because the masses fear them or don't like them for WHATEVER reason. (and that includes Jews and Christians as I stated IN MY PREVIOUS POST). Where on earth do you come up with some mumbo-jumbo about me saying that the "Jews and Muslims struggles are NOT SIMILAR"" I just told you that Christians, Jews and Muslims have no obligation, as an entire entity, to put forth some sort of public relations makeover simply because their image is suffering. That makes them VERY SIMILAR to me! Go back, and read each and every one of my posts, word for word, again if you need to.
Instead, you've gone and created some fantasy situation about what I'm saying or what I've told you. I can't debate that. I quote you and show you what you said. On the other hand, you tell me I'm "not equating the struggle of Jews and Muslims," or I've said something about the struggle of "Gays and Hispanics." You're dreaming this up. I give up.
David R. Modny wrote:
Jeff T. wrote:
Ok, none of these groups waited around for "responsible people to point out exactly who the racists were" but rather got together and made it happen for themselves. Even against a backdrop of hatred, these groups were able to thrive. Even gays in an age of rampant aids were able to make advances not thought possible ten years earlier.
Jeff,You're missing a key point in your rapidly diverging post. Muslim-Americans *are* already thriving in all sectors of life and "making it happen." They're our fellow Americans. Businessmen. Firemen. Policemen. Teachers. Members of the military. This isn't about a group of people who have laws against them that they're trying to change. There are no legal discriminatory doctrines against Muslims in this country -- as much as some sad souls just might wish.
The "African-American/racist" analogy was only to show what is to be done when *any* law-abiding citizen's freedom is being in threatened in this country. That is, you expose the perpetrator and protect the victim and their rights. You don't ask for a makeover or a rehabilitation.
Your original post dealt with one subject. You felt that Muslim-Americans needed to "improve their image." I'm telling you that a) no law-abiding group is required to repair their image simply because somebody else doesn't like them or fears them, and b) you can't change someone's opinion who doesn't want to have their opinion changed in the first place. If you read that NYT article that Luke posted a link to earlier, you'll see what drives this whole sad, piece of media nonsense, and how it applies to the latter.
The highlighted section above is where you point out that there is a difference here, or appears to me that you see a difference. I see no difference in that struggle, laws or no laws, the struggle is the same. I point this out, and then you claim I have some fantasy version of what was written.
Furthermore, obligations and/or laws of discrimination, or laws to protect against discrimination, all those so-called laws - tell it to the suffering blacks who are discriminated against in their daily lives today. It's nearly the same thing David with or without laws. The side issue concerning this new center being built near ground zero, and the discrimination against a religious group is not really about laws is it. It is about a mindset as you know. So you can keep repeating that no group should be required (IN A PREFECT WORLD) to change anything, least of all a public image. I never said we need to make make religious groups feel as if they need to rehabilitate their image did I? You don't like my suggestion that it might be a good idea (because it has been used in other struggles), that suggestion, but it was not stated as a requirement. But those other struggles I just read, you see differently because of laws passed? Read your own words again, and see the bolded sentences, they are hard to see on my screen, but you'll see. I just reread the bolded comment, and I still read it as you saying that there is a difference (Muslims vs. other struggling minorities) due to laws. Where on earth do you come up with some mumbo-jumbo about me saying that the "Jews and Muslims struggles are NOT SIMILAR""
well right here David:"This isn't about a group of people who have laws against them that they're trying to change."
Why did you say this? This was in response to my comment about some minorities and their very similar struggles. I need not mention laws, I see no need, for the perpetrators care not about laws either, their hatred is beyond laws. AND just because their are laws does not mean that those laws are just. So why are you bringing up laws? I don't get that.
If you are not saying that there is a difference, what are you saying in the bolded sentences?
What part of my reading your written posts is fantasy?
You say it should never be a requirement to correct distorted images. Ok fine! Please find a fresh angle here, you are going in circles. Never a requirement ok, ok!
But you know something, there are watchdog groups who go after the media when these negative stereotypes are presented. They have a purpose, and I would tend to think that they are effective. They are effective. They demand that the images presented be correct. This is about images like it or not. And the PR words you do NOT!
You simply do not like that (my) suggestion that powerful Muslims speak out and show that they are the same as everyone else, because they have the right not to if they choose. I see it as a need, not requirement. More role models needed.
But I still think that everyone must do their own work and make the sacrifices, we can sit around and let you inform everyone who will listen, and try and enlighten people. But change is possible.
You may not know the struggles personally. Hell I may be 1/2 Hispanic, 1/2 back, and gay. Having seen it, or still seeing the struggle. But I do know that laws themselves will not cut it. It takes changes in attitudes, one person at a time if need be. And positive role models and images are a key part in changes of perception, and even if you think that is a very unfair expectation, it is a fact.
ok, take it David, and have that last word. Thanks for the good debate.here in a nutshell:
"That is, you expose the perpetrator and protect the victim and their rights. You don't ask for a makeover or a rehabilitation. "
What if I am a Muslim, and I have this as my idea and way for me and my family to deal?
Just because you are a victim does not mean you need not do something about it, and simply let the perpetrators be exposed for who they are. There are more active roles than just that. Sorry you don't like my action course.