Screw Hillary Clinton

Expect plenty of disagreement. Just keep it civil.
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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:09 pm

Grumbling Clinton supporters make Democrats nervous

As Clinton wrapped up her remarks Saturday in Washington with a plea for supporters to work "as hard for Barack Obama as you have for me," many were posting messages saying they would never vote for the presumptive Democratic nominee. A few even called on her backers to visit Sen. John McCain's campaign Web site.

"I love her and will vote for her in 2012, but it's McCain all the way now," wrote one within moments of the New York senator's address.
[...]
As Democratic leaders met last month and decided to seat Florida and Michigan at half strength at the convention, angry Clinton supporters who had backed her plea for the seating of full delegations from both states began to chant, "Let's go, McCain!"

And as Clinton's presidential bid wound down, some of her loudest supporters began insisting they would consider voting for McCain if she were not the Democratic nominee.


WTF? As far as I was concerned, from a policy standpoint, there wasn't a ton of difference between Obama and Clinton. What criteria do these folks use in determining who they are going to vote for?

Ron Paul supporters not voting for McCain? Yeah, that is pretty plausible. Clinton supporters not voting for Obama? I'm left scratching my head.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Rspaight » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:28 pm

It has nothing to do with policy. They simply want to punish the Democrats for not nominating Clinton.
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Postby David R. Modny » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:26 pm

Call me an eternal optimist, but I still would like to think that this is simply the post-mortem shock effect rearing it's head (and it makes good headlines too). Kind of like polling grumbling sports fans -- who swear that they're never going to follow the game again -- *immediately* after their team gets bounced from the playoffs in the first round.

Now, after the convention if these numbers still hold true, I'll start to question the sanity of some of these people. If they truly want to end the war, they have a chance for their voices to be heard. Conversely, if they're going to choose their President like they're picking their favorite American Idol, then they have no reason to complain if and when we get more of the same. Let's hope reason prevails. We Dems are going to need every single vote we can muster up!
Last edited by David R. Modny on Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Bennett Cerf » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:39 pm

Yeah, I agree.

Plus my guess is the Hillary-supporters-turned-McCain-supporters are relatively few in number and heavily influenced by McCain's reputation as the straight-talking maverick.

He's going to have trouble keeping that image as more people start paying attention to him and realize that he's been quite conservative all along, and he's dumped a lot of the "maverick" positions in his quest for the presidency.

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Postby David R. Modny » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:38 pm

This election is going to be a mandate on whether or not Americans truly do want the change most of us have been clamoring for. It's also going to be a chance for a ton of ignorant -- perhaps closet -- racists to show just how *truly* ignorant they are. Unfortunately, I think there will be a contingent of Democrats who would rather vote for the silver-haired white gent then to finally give this country a fighting chance again at equality, social justice and *real* freedom by voting for the African-American ----- a few who might even hide behind the "Hillary was my only candidate" rationale while doing so. If so, that's shameful.

If we're going to take back the White House in November, then our strength must be in the unity. That kind of unity on the other side is what put the bad guy in office in '00 and '04. As others have pointed out, ideologically and (mostly) voting record-wise, Obama should be a no-brainer for even Hillary's staunchest supporters. Truth be told, policy-wise, I would have been comfortable with either one of them vs. the looming alternative.
Last edited by David R. Modny on Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby lukpac » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:36 pm

JFC.

http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1& ... 8&id=41516

FRIDAY, June 13, 2008, 3:08 p.m.
By Craig Gilbert
Clinton delegate to vote for McCain

As an avid supporter of Hillary Rodham Clinton in the Democratic primaries, Debra Bartoshevich is not alone in her frustration over Clinton's defeat.

She's not alone in refusing to support Barack Obama.

And she's not entirely alone in saying she'll vote this fall for Republican John McCain instead.

But what makes her unusual is that she holds these views as an elected delegate to the Democratic National Convention in Denver this summer.

"I'm sure people are going to be upset with me. I don't want to lose my national delegate status," says Bartoshevich, a 41-year-old emergency room nurse who is a convention delegate, pledged to Clinton, from Waterford in Racine County.

Joe Wineke, the chairman of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin, reacted with disbelief when first told Friday afternoon that one of his state party delegates is now a McCain supporter.

"Not a delegate? To the national convention?" asked Wineke, who was getting ready for the start of the state party convention Friday in Stevens Point.

"We have a Clinton national (convention) delegate who says she's voting for John McCain?" Wineke repeated, for clarification. "I've never heard of such a thing."

Wineke said "almost everybody I know who was for Hillary" is solidly behind Obama now. As for Bartoshevich, he said, "my suspicion is she doesn't know what she's getting into" because "the delegates to this convention will be very upset."

Asked if publicly supporting the other party's presidential nominee could affect a delegate's convention status, Wineke said, "I never thought I'd ever get a question like this."

After some preliminary checking, the state party chair said he assumed she would remain a delegate.

The McCain campaign said that, nationally, it was not aware at this point of any other delegates to the Democratic convention (it may know of an alternate, it said) who have come out for the Republican candidate.

In an interview, Bartoshevich expressed lingering unhappiness over the Democratic nominating process, said Clinton was treated unfairly by the party, and said she has deep reservations about Obama's lack of experience and his judgment.

"I'm kind of disenfranchised," she said.

She said she planned to vote for Clinton at the convention, but in an Obama-McCain match-up in November, "I will not be voting for Obama. I will cast my vote for John McCain.

Said Bartoshevich: "I just feel you need to have somebody who has experience with foreign matters."

She said a series of controversial Obama "associations," including but not limited to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Chicago developer Tony Rezko, reflected poorly on his judgment. And she echoed the complaints of many of Clinton's most ardent supporters that Clinton was treated unfairly in the nominating process and by the party.

"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her - that's by Susan B. Anthony," said Bartoshevich, referring to the famous suffragist.

Bartoshevich called herself a "devoted Democrat" who, she said, had never voted for a Republican for president.

"I'm on a lot of the (pro-Clinton) blogs, and so many people, male and female, feel the same way as I do," said Bartoshevich, who was listed as a Racine County co-chair for the Clinton campaign and who traveled outside Wisconsin to volunteer for Clinton. "The Democrats jumped on this wagon of Barack Obama and nobody really knows him."

Hoping to tap into discontent among Clinton supporters, the McCain campaign is reaching out to them in a variety of ways, including a telephone "town hall" meeting Saturday targeted to non-Republican voters. Encouraged by her sister, who has served in Iraq, Bartoshevich signed up as a supporter with "Citizens for McCain," an arm of the campaign targeting Democrats and independents. She said she then got a call from the McCain campaign, which in turn provided her name to a reporter.

Polls suggest that Democrats are largely rallying around Obama after a divisive nominating fight, a phenomenon that has occurred in past intra-party fights, say scholars. But it remains to be seen whether Obama is hurt in the fall by any softness among from Clinton's core constituencies, especially white women, and older and lower-income whites.

Clinton has not formally "released" her pledged delegates, and it would not be unusual, given recent history, for most of them to cast their votes for Clinton at the convention. But she has urged her delegates to help Obama defeat McCain.

Professor Byron Shafer, a University of Wisconsin-Madison scholar who is an expert on conventions, said it's the fact that Bartoshevich is a convention delegate, subject to the partisan tendencies and pressures common to party activists, that makes her public support for McCain so unusual.

"The competitive partisan dynamic is usually strong enough that even the people not willing to line up at the convention on record for the nominee, are still unlikely to be willing to line up publicly for the other party's nominee," said Shafer. "It's a pretty far-out move."

Asked what kind of reception he would expect Bartoshevich to get from her fellow delegates, he said: "I would guess a lot of people will be very rude and very unpleasant."
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Bennett Cerf » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:41 am

Poll: Dems Satisfied With Obama As Nominee -- And Republicans Aren't With McCain

By Eric Kleefeld - June 12, 2008, 11:16PM

A new number from the latest Hotline/Diageo poll goes a long way toward dispelling the idea that Barack Obama is leading a seriously divided party. On the contrary, the poll suggests that it's John McCain who has a problem in this regard.

The poll, conducted in the wake of Obama's clinching the nomination and including sampling dates from before Hillary Clinton's final concession, found that 68% of Democratic primary voters were satisfied with Obama as the nominee, with 30% preferring someone else.

By contrast, only 52% of Republican primary voters were satisfied with John McCain as their nominee, with 45% preferring someone else. And this is despite the fact that McCain sewed up his nomination months ago, while Democratic emotions were still raw when this poll was conducted.

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Postby czeskleba » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:03 am

"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her - that's by Susan B. Anthony," said Bartoshevich, referring to the famous suffragist.


The Democrats need to target these idiots with a barrage of Supreme Court TV commercials. There's a pretty decent likelihood JP Stevens is gonna die in the next four years. McCain winning very likely means the end of Roe v. Wade. Gosh, what would Susan B. Anthony say about that?

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Postby David R. Modny » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:33 pm


The Democrats need to target these idiots with a barrage of Supreme Court TV commercials. There's a pretty decent likelihood JP Stevens is gonna die in the next four years. McCain winning very likely means the end of Roe v. Wade. Gosh, what would Susan B. Anthony say about that?


This is exactly what I mentioned to Luke a couple of nights ago on the phone (i.e. JP's age and its devastating repercussions). Ol' Antonin has made his mission perfectly clear, and we're already teetering on the edge as it is. We simply can't afford another four years of Republican rule.

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Postby Xenu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:33 pm

I can't believe Obama is supporting today's FISA bill..
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Postby David R. Modny » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:39 am

Xenu wrote:I can't believe Obama is supporting today's FISA bill..


It's a Party move. While it's disappointing and stinks in pure principal, it's the classic scenario where both sides can temporarily claim political victory based on the "compromises" involved. And, while it may have made him an ideological hero for lefties like me, bucking this would probably be November suicide from the negative spin that the opposition would put forth. We need national security points. At this juncture, I'm not willing to throw him or the Party under the proverbial bus. As much as I despise this kind of double-talk, they don't want to brand themselves this early in the campaign season (obviously, the Prez would veto the vote-downs anyway). Furthermore, if the opposition tries to call Obama a flip-flopper, it'll just be open season on McCain's mounting list. In the meantime, write your Senator and tell them just how much you're against the immunity, even if it won't make a whit of difference when they vote.

Also, though we'll end up with amnesty in regard to any civil suits, isn't it possible that criminal prosecution might always still be an option under Obama's leadership? Or, am I interpreting this all wrong? At worst, he'll be the centrist that everyone has him pegged as anyway on more than a couple of issues.

Let's get him in office first. Baby steps. I'll just hold my nose a little longer and keep hoping for the future. Republicans do it all the time...and they seem to keep managing to get their guys elected. No?


Here's what Time had to say:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/artic ... 11,00.html

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Postby Xenu » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:16 am

I'm sort of with Greenwald on this. I'd like to know what went on. Under this compromise--which, optimistic Time editorial aside, is really amnesty in all but name, as the secrecy of the proceedings combined with the difficulty of proving a tap will wreak havoc on this...and as "liberal" as the 9th circuit is, the rest of the federal bench is Federalist society through and through by this point...

This is also wreaking havoc on a personal end. I have a few friends who work for AT&T, and repeated visits by the NSA--combined with rooms in the building they're not allowed to go into, not allowed to acknowledge exist, and will get fired for asking questions about--have put them a bit on edge. Regular people who aren't into overdramatic spy shit shouldn't be asked to indulge in these pseudo cold-war fantasies at the government's behest.
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:49 am

Obama's blessing of the FISA bill sucks donkey balls. I'm sure the thinking is that he can't afford an opening for the "he loves terrorists and hates America" attack (see also the brain-dead cartoons that Bennett posted in the habeus corpus thread), but like Greenwald said, Obama's hype all along was that he wasn't going to play those games.

Not surprising, but maddening all the same.
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Postby LesPaul666 » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:05 pm

With today's news, We all can rest assured to be prepared for the worst.

Now, do you understand what I was saying earlier on?

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Postby David R. Modny » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:22 pm

LesPaul666 wrote:With today's news, We all can rest assured to be prepared for the worst.

Now, do you understand what I was saying earlier on?



Not really. Because for all the love that certain elements of the base may have for Hillary, she's just as polarizing a figure with the rest of the voting electorate. I'd rather bank on Obama trying to shore up the base than trying to get the undecided middle (or disgruntled middle-right) in the heartland of America to fall in love with Hillary. And, for that undecided middle now, that translates into someone with foreign policy experience - and *overall* experience on the ticket.

Furthermore, if the base is still stupid enough to carry this grudge as a result of Hillary not getting the nomination or the VP nod, then they deserve all the misfortune that's going to come their way due to their (planned) apathy. Not voting in November is a vote for McCain. Someone who's the antithesis of everything Hillary -- and one would hope her base too -- stands for.

We Democrats need to band together from within and stop finding new ways every four years to sabotage our chances of winning back the White House. Only then will the rest take care of itself.

Biden's articulate (no pun intended), smart as a whip and a straight shooter. A good counterpart to Obama. Maybe not 100% perfect or 100% politically bulletproof. But who is?
Last edited by David R. Modny on Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.