Let's Talk About Politics - with a German
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Ess Ay Cee Dee
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Rspaight
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Andreas wrote:And for something slightly different, do you have any ideas why there are many more people in prison in the US than in Germany? (Relative to the population, of course.)
I don't have the answer, but here's a few guesses:
- Better social safety net in Germany?
- Emphasis on punishment/tough sentences in US?
- Stricter drug sentencing in US?
Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney
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I'm divided on this one. Stirs up a lot of emotion and conflicted thoughts.
The mind says, life in prison offers the ability to reverse a decision if it's proven someone is innocent through DNA evidence or otherwise.
The gut says if one of my relatives beaten to death and the person openly admitted to doing it without remorse, I'd want the person killed. No question.
Back to the discussion in progress...
I'm divided on this one. Stirs up a lot of emotion and conflicted thoughts.
The mind says, life in prison offers the ability to reverse a decision if it's proven someone is innocent through DNA evidence or otherwise.
The gut says if one of my relatives beaten to death and the person openly admitted to doing it without remorse, I'd want the person killed. No question.
Back to the discussion in progress...
Last edited by Aftermath on Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Patrick M wrote:- More crimes are committed in the U.S.
I didn't get that impression when I was living in the US in 1997/1998, Syracuse, NY. At least subjectively, I felt as safe as in Ulm.
How usual is probation for criminals? In Germany, the majority of verdicts for 2 years of prison are on a probation basis, i.e. he stays free.
Last edited by Andreas on Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Published in the Chicago Tribune today:
Report: Inmate wrongly executed
Arson experts say evidence in Texas case scientifically invalid
By Maurice Possley
Tribune staff reporter
Published May 3, 2006
Four of the nation's top arson experts have concluded that the state of Texas executed a man in 2004 based on scientifically invalid evidence, and on Tuesday they called for an official reinvestigation of the case.
In their report, the experts, assembled by the Innocence Project, a non-profit organization responsible for scores of exonerations, concluded that the conviction and 2004 execution of Cameron Todd Willingham for the arson-murders of his three daughters were based on interpretations by fire investigators that have been scientifically disproved.
"The whole system has broken down," Barry Scheck, co-founder and director of the Innocence Project, said at a news conference at the state Capitol in Austin. "It's time to find out whether Texas has executed an innocent man."
The experts were asked to perform an independent review of the evidence after an investigation by the Tribune that showed Willingham had been found guilty on arson theories that have been repudiated by scientific advances. In fact, many of the theories were simply lore that had been handed down by generations of arson investigators who relied on what they were told.
The report's conclusions match the findings of the Tribune, published in December 2004. The newspaper began investigating the Willingham case following an October 2004 series, "Forensics Under the Microscope," which examined the use of forensics in the courtroom, including the continued use of disproved arson theories to obtain convictions.
In strong language harshly critical of the investigation of the 1991 fire in Corsicana, southeast of Dallas, the report said evidence examined in the Willingham case and "relied upon by fire investigators" was the type of evidence "routinely created by accidental fires."
No fatal mistakes confirmed
Since the death penalty was reinstated in the U.S. in 1976, 1,020 men and women have been executed, with more than one-third--362--put to death in Texas.
Although more than 100 people have been released from Death Row in the U.S. during that time, no government authority has concluded that an innocent person was executed.
The arson report singled out the testimony at Willingham's trial of Manuel Vasquez, a deputy state fire marshal, who said he found numerous indicators in the debris that he interpreted as evidence that Willingham intentionally set the fire.
"Each and every one of the `indicators' listed by Mr. Vasquez means absolutely nothing," the report states.
Scheck said copies of the report have been sent to the nine members of the Texas Forensic Science Commission with a request that the commission open an investigation of Willingham's prosecution. The commission was created last year to investigate allegations of "professional negligence or misconduct that would substantially affect the integrity of the results of a forensic analysis."
In addition to the Willingham case, the report examined the arson prosecution of Ernest Ray Willis, who was charged with the arson-murders of two women in Iraan, Texas, on June 11, 1986.
In 2004--a few months after Willingham was executed--Willis, who was facing the death penalty in a retrial of his case, was released and the case dismissed after arson experts concluded there was no evidence that the fire was intentionally set.
The report assessing the two cases notes that even though the interpretations of the physical evidence in the Willis case were the same as in the Willingham case, authorities in Texas have declined to say that Willingham was wrongly convicted and executed. The report said the "disparity of the outcomes in these two cases warrants a closer inspection."
In the letter to the commission, Scheck said, "Willis cannot be found `actually innocent' and Willingham executed based on the same scientific evidence."
Further, Scheck asked that the commission commence a systemwide review of arson cases, saying Texas leads the nation in the percentage of people incarcerated for arson convictions, many of which undoubtedly are based on the same sort of invalid science cited in the Willis and Willingham cases.
House full of smoke
Two days before Christmas in 1991, Willingham's wife left their house to pay bills and shop for Christmas gifts for their 1-year-old twins, Karmon and Kameron, and their 2-year-old daughter, Amber.
Willingham testified that he was awakened about an hour later by Amber's cries for help and found the house full of smoke. Willingham escaped, but the children did not.
At Willingham's trial, Vasquez and Corsicana Assistant Fire Chief Doug Fogg testified that the fire was deliberately set and pointed to numerous "indicators" as proof. One of those indicators was "crazed glass," a phenomenon that they said was caused by a fire that burned so hot and so fast that it could only have been caused by an accelerant.
But the new report notes that scientific testing has established that crazed glass can be caused by spraying water on hot glass; in effect, the act of extinguishing a fire was being used to prove that the fire was an arson.
When he was strapped to the gurney to be executed, Willingham said, "I am an innocent man, convicted of a crime I did not commit."
The report urges authorities to examine other cases as well.
"To the extent that there are still investigators in Texas and elsewhere, who [misinterpret fires], there will continue to be serious miscarriages of justice," it states.
Touting proven science
One of the four authors of the report, John Lentini, a private fire investigator who first examined the Willingham case at the request of the Tribune, is a leading proponent of grounding arson investigation in proven science.
The report calls on the criminal justice system to require arson investigators to have backgrounds in the science of fire and that criminal defense lawyers be afforded money to hire independent fire investigators. It also urges that participants in the justice system, particularly prosecutors, who decide whether to bring charges, be educated about scientific advances in fire investigation.
"There is no crime other than homicide by arson for which a person can be sent to Death Row based on the unsupported opinion of someone who received all of his training `on the job,'" the report states.
At the news conference Tuesday, Lentini said the analysis of the testimony by fire investigators in the Willis and Willingham cases shows that "over and over and over again, they repeated the mythology. ... These guys didn't know what they were talking about."
One member of the Texas Forensic Science Commission, Austin attorney Sam Bassett, said Tuesday that the panel has yet to schedule its first meeting and is awaiting legislative approval for funding for travel and other expenses.
He said that based on reading some of the report, "certainly this is a potential nightmare scenario that everybody talks about--the execution of an innocent person. I would hope that this would merit our attention."
Eugenia Willingham, Willingham's stepmother, who lives in Ardmore, Okla., attended the news conference as well. She wept as she said, "We want the truth to be known in Todd's case. We want to keep this from ever happening again." [With Texas's track record? Good fucking luck.]
Report: Inmate wrongly executed
Arson experts say evidence in Texas case scientifically invalid
By Maurice Possley
Tribune staff reporter
Published May 3, 2006
Four of the nation's top arson experts have concluded that the state of Texas executed a man in 2004 based on scientifically invalid evidence, and on Tuesday they called for an official reinvestigation of the case.
In their report, the experts, assembled by the Innocence Project, a non-profit organization responsible for scores of exonerations, concluded that the conviction and 2004 execution of Cameron Todd Willingham for the arson-murders of his three daughters were based on interpretations by fire investigators that have been scientifically disproved.
"The whole system has broken down," Barry Scheck, co-founder and director of the Innocence Project, said at a news conference at the state Capitol in Austin. "It's time to find out whether Texas has executed an innocent man."
The experts were asked to perform an independent review of the evidence after an investigation by the Tribune that showed Willingham had been found guilty on arson theories that have been repudiated by scientific advances. In fact, many of the theories were simply lore that had been handed down by generations of arson investigators who relied on what they were told.
The report's conclusions match the findings of the Tribune, published in December 2004. The newspaper began investigating the Willingham case following an October 2004 series, "Forensics Under the Microscope," which examined the use of forensics in the courtroom, including the continued use of disproved arson theories to obtain convictions.
In strong language harshly critical of the investigation of the 1991 fire in Corsicana, southeast of Dallas, the report said evidence examined in the Willingham case and "relied upon by fire investigators" was the type of evidence "routinely created by accidental fires."
No fatal mistakes confirmed
Since the death penalty was reinstated in the U.S. in 1976, 1,020 men and women have been executed, with more than one-third--362--put to death in Texas.
Although more than 100 people have been released from Death Row in the U.S. during that time, no government authority has concluded that an innocent person was executed.
The arson report singled out the testimony at Willingham's trial of Manuel Vasquez, a deputy state fire marshal, who said he found numerous indicators in the debris that he interpreted as evidence that Willingham intentionally set the fire.
"Each and every one of the `indicators' listed by Mr. Vasquez means absolutely nothing," the report states.
Scheck said copies of the report have been sent to the nine members of the Texas Forensic Science Commission with a request that the commission open an investigation of Willingham's prosecution. The commission was created last year to investigate allegations of "professional negligence or misconduct that would substantially affect the integrity of the results of a forensic analysis."
In addition to the Willingham case, the report examined the arson prosecution of Ernest Ray Willis, who was charged with the arson-murders of two women in Iraan, Texas, on June 11, 1986.
In 2004--a few months after Willingham was executed--Willis, who was facing the death penalty in a retrial of his case, was released and the case dismissed after arson experts concluded there was no evidence that the fire was intentionally set.
The report assessing the two cases notes that even though the interpretations of the physical evidence in the Willis case were the same as in the Willingham case, authorities in Texas have declined to say that Willingham was wrongly convicted and executed. The report said the "disparity of the outcomes in these two cases warrants a closer inspection."
In the letter to the commission, Scheck said, "Willis cannot be found `actually innocent' and Willingham executed based on the same scientific evidence."
Further, Scheck asked that the commission commence a systemwide review of arson cases, saying Texas leads the nation in the percentage of people incarcerated for arson convictions, many of which undoubtedly are based on the same sort of invalid science cited in the Willis and Willingham cases.
House full of smoke
Two days before Christmas in 1991, Willingham's wife left their house to pay bills and shop for Christmas gifts for their 1-year-old twins, Karmon and Kameron, and their 2-year-old daughter, Amber.
Willingham testified that he was awakened about an hour later by Amber's cries for help and found the house full of smoke. Willingham escaped, but the children did not.
At Willingham's trial, Vasquez and Corsicana Assistant Fire Chief Doug Fogg testified that the fire was deliberately set and pointed to numerous "indicators" as proof. One of those indicators was "crazed glass," a phenomenon that they said was caused by a fire that burned so hot and so fast that it could only have been caused by an accelerant.
But the new report notes that scientific testing has established that crazed glass can be caused by spraying water on hot glass; in effect, the act of extinguishing a fire was being used to prove that the fire was an arson.
When he was strapped to the gurney to be executed, Willingham said, "I am an innocent man, convicted of a crime I did not commit."
The report urges authorities to examine other cases as well.
"To the extent that there are still investigators in Texas and elsewhere, who [misinterpret fires], there will continue to be serious miscarriages of justice," it states.
Touting proven science
One of the four authors of the report, John Lentini, a private fire investigator who first examined the Willingham case at the request of the Tribune, is a leading proponent of grounding arson investigation in proven science.
The report calls on the criminal justice system to require arson investigators to have backgrounds in the science of fire and that criminal defense lawyers be afforded money to hire independent fire investigators. It also urges that participants in the justice system, particularly prosecutors, who decide whether to bring charges, be educated about scientific advances in fire investigation.
"There is no crime other than homicide by arson for which a person can be sent to Death Row based on the unsupported opinion of someone who received all of his training `on the job,'" the report states.
At the news conference Tuesday, Lentini said the analysis of the testimony by fire investigators in the Willis and Willingham cases shows that "over and over and over again, they repeated the mythology. ... These guys didn't know what they were talking about."
One member of the Texas Forensic Science Commission, Austin attorney Sam Bassett, said Tuesday that the panel has yet to schedule its first meeting and is awaiting legislative approval for funding for travel and other expenses.
He said that based on reading some of the report, "certainly this is a potential nightmare scenario that everybody talks about--the execution of an innocent person. I would hope that this would merit our attention."
Eugenia Willingham, Willingham's stepmother, who lives in Ardmore, Okla., attended the news conference as well. She wept as she said, "We want the truth to be known in Todd's case. We want to keep this from ever happening again." [With Texas's track record? Good fucking luck.]
"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war." – Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Neither slave nor tyrant." - Basque motto
"Neither slave nor tyrant." - Basque motto
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lukpac
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Matt wrote:I can't think of anything worse than getting convicted of a crime one didn't commit.
I can. Getting put to death for it.
That's scary.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD
Matt wrote:I wonder if more innocent people have been wrongly convicted (and executed) of committing murder as opposed to people guilty of committing murder that get away with the crime?
I seriously doubt it, given the amount of murders that occur and the (relatively) small amount of people that are executed. But I hope you are not suggesting that these two things (a person being wrongly executed and a murderer escaping justice) are somehow equivalent. I'd rather see a dozen murderers escape justice than one person get wrongly executed.
As for Willingham, it's important to remember that he has not been proven innocent. A large part of the evidence used to convict him has been discredited, but that does not prove his innocence. I did a little more research, and found that other factors in his conviction were neighbor's testimony that he crouched in front of the house and refused to go in and try to rescue the children, and did not show remorse about their deaths ("when the fire blew out the windows, Willingham hollered about his car and ran to move it away from the fire to avoid its being damaged.") Willingham had a history of verbal and physical abuse toward his family and had in one instance beaten his wife in an attempt to induce a miscarriage. He had bragged to a friend about brutally killing a dog. A fellow inmate testified he confessed to setting the fires. (http://crime.about.com/od/death/p/x14_willingham.htm)
At any rate, this story does clearly and sadly illustrate the biggest problem with the death penalty. The fact that it's possible he was innocent is horrifying.
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Matt
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I seriously doubt it, given the amount of murders that occur and the (relatively) small amount of people that are executed. But I hope you are not suggesting that these two things (a person being wrongly executed and a murderer escaping justice) are somehow equivalent. I'd rather see a dozen murderers escape justice than one person get wrongly executed.
No, I wasn't equating the two situations. My point was that the system is not perfect in many ways.
-Matt
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Matt
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IMHO, this pretentious, piece of fucking shit terrorist should have received the death penalty:
At sentencing, Moussaoui is told that he's the one who lost
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 009/NEWS07
ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- U.S. Judge Leonie Brinkema sent Zacarias Moussaoui to prison for life Thursday, to "die with a whimper," for his role in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The convicted terrorist declared: "God save Osama bin Laden -- you will never get him."
Brinkema and the unrepentant Moussaoui capped the two-month trial with an intense exchange that will mark the defendant's last public words before his incarceration in a maximum security prison, possibly in Colorado.
A day earlier, a jury rejected the government's case to have Moussaoui executed, deciding instead he should spend life in prison with no chance of parole. Not all jurors were convinced that Moussaoui, who was in jail on immigration charges Sept. 11, had a significant part in the attacks, despite his boasts that he did.
Brinkema firmly refused to be interrupted by the 37-year-old defendant as she disputed his declaration from a day earlier: "America, you lost. ... I won."
"Mr. Moussaoui, when this proceeding is over, everyone else in this room will leave to see the sun ... hear the birds ... and they can associate with whomever they want," she said. "You will spend the rest of your life in ... prison. It's absolutely clear who won."
Brinkema sentenced Moussaoui to six life terms without the chance of parole, with two terms to be served consecutively. She informed him of his right to appeal the sentence.
Lisa Dolan, who lost her husband, Bob, in the attack on the Pentagon, was one of three family members of victims allowed to speak at the brief sentencing hearing. She turned to Moussaoui and said, "There is still one final judgment day."
Moussaoui sat in his chair staring at Dolan and the other family witnesses, Rosemary Dillard and Abraham Scott, betraying no emotion as they spoke.
French authorities said Thursday they may eventually press the United States to have Moussaoui serve his life sentence in France under two conventions on the transfer of convicts. They were waiting to hear the conditions of his sentencing.
At sentencing, Moussaoui is told that he's the one who lost
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 009/NEWS07
ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- U.S. Judge Leonie Brinkema sent Zacarias Moussaoui to prison for life Thursday, to "die with a whimper," for his role in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The convicted terrorist declared: "God save Osama bin Laden -- you will never get him."
Brinkema and the unrepentant Moussaoui capped the two-month trial with an intense exchange that will mark the defendant's last public words before his incarceration in a maximum security prison, possibly in Colorado.
A day earlier, a jury rejected the government's case to have Moussaoui executed, deciding instead he should spend life in prison with no chance of parole. Not all jurors were convinced that Moussaoui, who was in jail on immigration charges Sept. 11, had a significant part in the attacks, despite his boasts that he did.
Brinkema firmly refused to be interrupted by the 37-year-old defendant as she disputed his declaration from a day earlier: "America, you lost. ... I won."
"Mr. Moussaoui, when this proceeding is over, everyone else in this room will leave to see the sun ... hear the birds ... and they can associate with whomever they want," she said. "You will spend the rest of your life in ... prison. It's absolutely clear who won."
Brinkema sentenced Moussaoui to six life terms without the chance of parole, with two terms to be served consecutively. She informed him of his right to appeal the sentence.
Lisa Dolan, who lost her husband, Bob, in the attack on the Pentagon, was one of three family members of victims allowed to speak at the brief sentencing hearing. She turned to Moussaoui and said, "There is still one final judgment day."
Moussaoui sat in his chair staring at Dolan and the other family witnesses, Rosemary Dillard and Abraham Scott, betraying no emotion as they spoke.
French authorities said Thursday they may eventually press the United States to have Moussaoui serve his life sentence in France under two conventions on the transfer of convicts. They were waiting to hear the conditions of his sentencing.
-Matt
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lukpac
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Matt wrote:IMHO, this pretentious, piece of fucking shit terrorist should have received the death penalty:
How would that have made anything better? Do you suppose he would have *cared* if he had been put to death? Dying certainly wasn't a problem for the rest of the 9/11 crew.
Or is killing him supposed to make us feel better?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD