Great police work: UK police kill man unrelated to probe

Expect plenty of disagreement. Just keep it civil.
User avatar
MK
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 4:24 pm
Location: North America

Great police work: UK police kill man unrelated to probe

Postby MK » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:33 pm

UK Police: Man Killed Unrelated to Probe

By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer 45 minutes ago

LONDON - The man shot and killed on a subway car by London police in front of horrified commuters apparently had nothing to do with this month's bombings on the city's transit system, police said Saturday in expressing their "regrets."

A day earlier, the police commissioner said the man was "directly linked" to Thursday's attacks, in which bombs on three subway trains and a bus failed to detonate properly. No one was injured.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," a police spokesman said on customary condition of anonymity.

The man, whose identity has not been released, was shot Friday at a subway station in the south London neighborhood of Stockwell. Witnesses said the man appeared to be South Asian and was wearing a heavy padded coat when police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.

A spokesman for Scotland Yard said on customary condition of anonymity that the man was unconnected to the incidents of Thursday, in which bombs placed on three subway cars and a double-decker bus failed to detonate properly.

The spokesman also said the man was "probably unconnected" to the July 7 subway and bus bombings that killed 56 people, including four attackers.

However, Scotland Yard would not rule out that the man was not connected to any terrorist actions.

Hours after the man was killed, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the shooting was "directly linked" to the investigations.

"The man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday's incidents," police said Friday.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions."

Police investigating Thursday's attacks also said Saturday they had arrested a second man in the same south London neighborhood where the shooting occurred and another person was detained.

Thousands of officers fanned out in a huge manhunt amid hopes the publication of images of four suspected attackers would lead to their capture.

Security alerts kept the city of about 8 million on edge. Police briefly evacuated east London's Mile End subway station in one such incident and one witness reported the smell of something burning. Service was suspended on parts of two subway lines, but police said later the incident "turned out to be nothing."

The mourning continued, with hundreds packing Westminster Cathedral for the funeral Mass of Anthony Fatayi-Williams, a 26-year-old who was among the 52 people killed by four suicide bombers in the first wave of attacks on July 7.

"These present atrocities and Anthony's death have raised great emotions in us," Auxiliary Bishop of Westminster Alan Hopes told mourners. "We are angry, we are appalled and we are grieving. But as Christians we cannot yield to bitterness, we cannot yield to thoughts of revenge."

The Metropolitan Police said the second arrest late Friday was "in connection with our inquiries" into Thursday's attacks. The first suspect, whose identity also has not been released, was being questioned at a high-security London police station.

Police would not say whether the men arrested were among the four suspected of carrying bombs onto three subway trains and a bus Thursday. The bombs failed to detonate properly and no one was injured in the attacks, which echoed the much deadlier blasts two weeks earlier.

Police said they had a good response to Friday's release of the photos, taken from the British capital's ubiquitous closed-circuit surveillance cameras, which have proved a boon for investigators.

The closed-circuit TV images of the suspects stared from the front pages of British newspapers Saturday.

"Faces of the four bombers," said the Daily Telegraph.

"The Fugitives" said The Times.

The Daily Mail labeled them "Human Bombs."

One image shows a stocky man in a "New York" sweatshirt running through a station. Another depicts a man in a white baseball cap and a T-shirt adorned with palm trees. Two others are in dark clothes, slightly obscured by a poor camera angle.

These have been days of high tension, disruption and fear on the London Underground. The union for subway and bus drivers said workers would be justified in staying away from work if the government fails to take more precautions to make the operators safe.

"I think they're going to strike again," commuter Warren West, 27, said of the bombers. "I think they're doing to London what's happening in
Iraq."

Heavily armed officers patrolled with clear instructions to stop suicide bombers — if necessary, with a shot to the head.

"If you are dealing with someone who might be a suicide bomber, if they remain conscious, they could trigger plastic explosives or whatever device is on them," Mayor Ken Livingstone. "Therefore, overwhelmingly in these circumstances, it is going to be a shoot-to-kill policy."

Thursday's bombs contained homemade explosives that only partly detonated, police said, adding that the attacks bore resemblance to the July 7 attacks, also on three subway trains and a bus. It was not clear if the explosives were of the same type.

A statement posted Friday on an Islamic Web site in the name of an al-Qaida-linked group claimed responsibility for Thursday's attacks.

Authorities, however, were skeptical. The group, Abu Hafs al Masri Brigades, has also claimed responsibility for the July 7 bombings — as it did for the 2003 New York City blackout and many other events.
"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war." – Dwight D. Eisenhower

"Neither slave nor tyrant." - Basque motto

Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Re: Great police work: UK police kill man unrelated to probe

Postby Dob » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:45 pm

Hours after the man was killed, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the shooting was "directly linked" to the investigations.

"The man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday's incidents," police said Friday.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions."

If the police are now saying that this man "had nothing to do with this month's bombings," then the above is no longer correct??? Did the police lose him on the way to the train station and then shoot the wrong guy??? WTF?
Dob
-------------------
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

User avatar
Beatlesfan03
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:45 pm
Location: Another red state :(

Postby Beatlesfan03 » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:49 pm

Remember, this is the war on terror. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Craig

User avatar
MK
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 4:24 pm
Location: North America

Postby MK » Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:20 am

Another board had a poster that basically said 'so what,' they're in a 'state of terror' because 'that's what terrorists do' (Noooo...). He then says the cops pulled the trigger but it was the terrorists that killed him.

That's right. The cops chased this guy, pinned him down on the ground after he tripped and fell, and then one of them decided to pump several shots into him instead of knocking him unconscious, handcuffing him, etc., etc. So the decision to shoot him then was the result of a policeman who, despite being trained for high-pressure situations, succumbed to the 'state of terror' and should therefore be excused of any negligence.
"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war." – Dwight D. Eisenhower



"Neither slave nor tyrant." - Basque motto

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4591
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:28 am

Police apologise, but say will shoot suspects on head

H S Rao in London | PTI | July 24, 2005 | 19:09 IST

The British police on Sunday accepted 'full responsibility' for shooting a Brazilian who turned out to be totally unconnected to the July 21 London�blasts, but said they will have to shoot suicide bombing suspects in the head to prevent them from detonating explosives.

"There is no point in shooting somebody's chest because that's where the bomb is likely to be. There is no point in shooting anywhere else because if they fall down they detonate it. This is drawn on the experience from other countries including Sri Lanka," London's Police Chief Ian Blair said about the way Jean Charles de Menezes was killed on Friday in South London's Stockwell underground station.

"The only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head," he told a local TV channel.

The Metropolitcan police accepted 'full responsibility for the fatal shooting of Menezes', he said, adding, "This is a tragedy. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."

The police apology came as family members and Brazil's government condemned the killing of the 27-year old electrician.

Zilda Ambrosia de Figueiredo, Menezes' grandmother said there 'was no reason to think he was a terrorist. He was very easy going and very communicative with everyone'.

His cousin Alex Alves Pereira from London said: "Apologies are not enough. I believe my cousin's death was a result of police incompetence."

Describing his cousin as a "person full of life" he told the BBC that Menezes was 'a victim of the government's mistakes' adding 'who does not have a past that would make him run from the police'?�

Scotland Yard had earlier confirmed that the victim was completely unconnected to Thursday's bomb attacks, which came two weeks after the deadly blasts in the city's transport system which killed 56.

Brazil's foreign minister is seeking an explanation from Jack Straw about the death of Menezes, who lived in Brixton, south London.

Brazil's government said it 'looks forward to receiving the necessary explanation from the British authorities on the circumstances which led to this tragedy'.

Meanwhile, police said it was certain that the 7/7 blasts and Thursday's attacks were related. Two men have so far been arrested after bombers targeted three tube trains and a bus in the failed attacks.

Police also said a suspect package found in north-west London on Saturday may be linked to those attacks.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "An initial examination suggests that the object may be linked to devices found at four locations in London on July 21," and would be subject to 'detailed forensic analysis'.

Police have also raided a house in Streatham Hill, south London, in connection with the failed attacks.

Meanwhile Dr Azam Tamimi, from the Muslim Association of Britain, told BBC the police should review their procedures.

"It is human lives that are being targeted whether by terrorists or whether, in this case, unfortunately by people who are supposed to be chasing or catching the terrorists."

But London Mayor Ken Livingstone said the police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the
public.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby Dob » Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:00 am

From today's NY Times:
The police had believed the man, who was shot at 10 a.m. Friday at the Stockwell subway station in south London, was a would-be suicide bomber because he had left an apartment under surveillance. They said the man behaved in a "highly suspicious" manner - he was wearing a winter coat on a warm summer day, repeatedly ignored officers' instructions to stop and jumped over the subway turnstiles before running toward a waiting train and tripping and falling to its floor, the police said. Stunned witnesses said a police officer used a pistol to shoot the man five times, at point-blank range, in the head.

This doesn't make sense. Why would an innocent man be running from the police and leaping over turnstiles? Apparently he had no trouble speaking or understanding English. I wonder if any of the witnesses saw things differently...
MK wrote:...then one of them decided to pump several shots into him instead of knocking him unconscious, handcuffing him, etc., etc.

Scotland Yard has a "shoot-to-kill" (in the head) policy for suicide bomber situations -- a policy they have no intention of changing.
Dob

-------------------

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4591
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:28 am

Dob wrote:This doesn't make sense. Why would an innocent man be running from the police and leaping over turnstiles? Apparently he had no trouble speaking or understanding English. I wonder if any of the witnesses saw things differently...


Maybe he was guilty of something else. Or was afraid that the police would think he was.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4591
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:30 am

Dob wrote:Scotland Yard has a "shoot-to-kill" (in the head) policy for suicide bomber situations -- a policy they have no intention of changing.


The question, though, is what determines what a "suicide bomber situation" is?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby Dob » Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:51 pm

lukpac wrote:Maybe he was guilty of something else.

Well, he sure was quick to decide to make a run for it. However, if he was a fugitive, he did a terrible job of "blending in." Also, he would've been much better off turning and running out of the station, and it seems that he had that option...scroll down to the end ofthis article which shows the floor plan of the station and describes the sequence of events.
Or was afraid that the police would think he was.

The article also commented that he "had lived for a time in a slum district of Sao Paulo, and that could explain why he had run from the police." I don't buy it. First, he had lived in London for 3 years, which is long enough to realize that London police are different than the ones in a Sao Paulo slum. Second, if I was in a public place, minding my own business, and saw a bunch of cops heading in my direction, I'd think "Hey, what's going on here?" vs "Uh oh, here they come to kick *my* ass (as opposed to the 10 other guys within 4 feet)." But maybe that's just lily-white-boy me.

The "official explanation" totally stinks. It's just a coincidence that Mr. de Menezes walked out of the same building the cops were watching? And that he was wearing a big coat? And that he headed straight for the train station? Plus he made the decision to run for the platform *before* he vaulted the turnstiles, which means almost immediately after he entered the station. Were the cops that were following so close to him that he couldn't run out? If so, how did he get as far as the platform?

Here's an interestingarticle regarding human rights/terror suspects in the UK, specifically anti-social behaviour orders (ASBOs), which can place a person under effective house arrest at the discretion of the home secretary. One guy received an ASBO for "being repeatedly sarcastic."

Note to self: Scratch "London" from list of potential cities for future residence.
Dob

-------------------

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby Dob » Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:12 pm

lukpac wrote:The question, though, is what determines what a "suicide bomber situation" is?

I'm more worried about what determines "suspicious behavior." It's beginning to sound like the definition is being male, of a certain age and ethnic extraction, quietly minding his own business.

If I was one of those guys I wouldn't walk around with a backpack in London (or anywhere, really) for love or money. And I wouldn't wear a jacket (never mind a coat) unless it was damn cold outside. Of course, that looks suspicious as well...
Dob

-------------------

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

User avatar
MK
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 4:24 pm
Location: North America

Postby MK » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:38 pm

Update - police version of events disputed by briefing documents:

Fatal mistakes that led to innocent man being killed in Stockwell Tube
By Richard Alleyne
(Filed: 17/08/2005)

The day after police shot dead a suspected terrorist on the London Underground they issued a statement admitting they had killed an innocent man.

Although they expressed regret over his death journalists were briefed in the following days that his behaviour had contributed to the "catastrophic" error.

Reports claimed that Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, had been wearing a winter coat despite the warm weather, had jumped a barrier and, most suspiciously of all, had fled when challenged.

Now, with the leaking of a number of briefing documents to ITV News, even this excuse for the killing appears to be without foundation.

According to the files, said to be from the independent inquiry into the shooting at Stockwell station on July 22, Mr de Menezes died because of misjudgments, errors and bad decisions even more grave than first thought.

Far from acting suspiciously, the electrician had behaved like any other commuter that day. Wearing only a denim jacket, he had walked calmly through the barriers - even pausing to pick up a free newspaper.

He did run, but only a few yards to catch a train which had pulled into the platform. What is more, the report reveals he had been grabbed and held by an officer just seconds before being shot. It appears that he was completely oblivious to the armed officers following him before he was restrained.

To understand how this mistake was made, the documents take the scene back to earlier that morning when a surveillance unit backed up by armed officers from SO19, the firearms unit, homed in on flats in Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, south London, where the victim lived.

They believed the block contained one or more of the would-be bombers who had tried to blow up three Tube trains and a London bus less than 24 hours before.

At around 9.30am Mr de Menezes left the block and went to a nearby bus stop. Police saw him and thought he was Hussain Osman, one of the suspected terrorists.

But the documents revealed that no positive identification was ever made because an officer was "relieving himself" at the time Mr de Menezes left the building.

The officer said: "As he walked out of my line of vision I checked the photographs and transmitted that it would be worth someone else having a look. I should point out that as I observed this male exited the block I was in the process of relieving myself.

"At this time I was not able to transmit my observations and switch on the video camera at the same time. There is therefore no video footage of this male."

But by the time he got to the bus stop, the officers had positively identified him as a suspect and were given permission to shoot.

One of the accounts says: "De Menezes was observed walking to a bus stop and then boarded a bus, travelling to Stockwell station. During the course of this, his description and demeanour was assessed and it was believed he matched the identity of one of the suspects wanted for terrorist offences."

It was decided that Mr de Menezes should be prevented from entering the Tube.

"At this stage, responsibility was handed over to SO19."

The investigation report added: "If the subject was non-compliant, a critical shot may be taken."

After Mr de Menezes got off the bus, CCTV picked him up walking calmly through the barriers at Stockwell. The report shows he walked at normal pace, collected a Metro newspaper and slowly descended the escalator.

At some point near the bottom he was seen to run across the concourse and enter the carriage before sitting down.

Eyewitness statements then give further accounts of what happened inside the train.

Mr de Menezes boarded the carriage in which he died through the middle doors. He then paused, looked left then right and went to sit down in either the second or third seat facing the platform.

A man sitting opposite him is quoted as saying: "Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me. He pointed the gun at the right-hand side of the man's head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man's head when the first shot was fired."

The report also reveals that a member of the surveillance team grabbed Mr de Menezes before he was shot. He told investigators: "I heard shouting which included the word 'police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket. He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the SO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor."

The document also says Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and shoulder, but three other bullets missed.
"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war." – Dwight D. Eisenhower



"Neither slave nor tyrant." - Basque motto

User avatar
Rspaight
Posts: 4386
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:48 am
Location: The Reality-Based Community
Contact:

Postby Rspaight » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:16 pm

Oh, that's just lovely. I'm now waiting for the apologies from all the rabid war bloggers out there who were spouting, "He deserved what he got because he was wearing a heavy coat and he ran from the cops and he was brown! It's the price we pay for freedom! The US could learn something from those brave UK policemen!" I'm expecting that apology Real Soon Now...

[crickets chirping]

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby Dob » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:15 pm

Rspaight wrote:I'm now waiting for the apologies from all the rabid war bloggers out there who were spouting, "He deserved what he got because he was wearing a heavy coat and he ran from the cops and he was brown! It's the price we pay for freedom! The US could learn something from those brave UK policemen!"

Here's the statement that I expect:

"This doesn't change the fact that 'the cops pulled the trigger but it was the terrorists that killed him'."
Dob

-------------------

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

User avatar
krabapple
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:19 pm

Postby krabapple » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:12 pm

But the documents revealed that no positive identification was ever made because an officer was "relieving himself" at the time Mr de Menezes left the building.


Would be funny if the consequences weren't so tragic.


But by the time he got to the bus stop, the officers had positively identified him as a suspect and were given permission to shoot.


This however seems to contradict the earlier claim in the article.
"I recommend that you delete the Rancid Snakepit" - Grant

Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby Dob » Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:21 pm

But the documents revealed that no positive identification was ever made because an officer was "relieving himself" at the time Mr de Menezes left the building.

Perhaps "positive identification" in this context means "correct identification." It seems that this all got started when one of the backup observing officers (who likely didn't have as clear of a view) made an incorrect "positive" ID.

This testimony from "a member of the surveillance team" is fishy as well:
"I heard shouting which included the word 'police'...

Who was shouting here? If it *was* the police ("Stop! Police!"), why didn't he just state that?
...and turned to face the male in the denim jacket. He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the SO19 officers.

Apparently this was interpreted as a threatening move...the use of the word "immediately" makes it sound as if Mr. de Menezes jumped up to confront them. From what we know about Mr. de Menezes, this is highly unlikely. In any event, it seems as if this was the moment when the police decided that they had to "take him out." I don't think the police had decided that any earlier, because if they had, they wouldn't have risked warning him by shouting "police."
I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side. I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot...

Why were they so concerned about this being a suicide bombing? Weren't the other failed bombs planted? Wasn't that the MO of Hussain Osman, whom the police thought they were following? Where was his bomb? He had no backpack or bulky coat to hide a bomb strapped to his body. If they believed him to be a suicide bomber, why would they give him an opportunity to detonate his (invisible) bomb by shouting "police"?
(The police) believed the block contained one or more of the would-be bombers who had tried to blow up three Tube trains and a London bus less than 24 hours before.

From CNN.com:
Scotland Yard has accused (Osman) of being the would-be bomber at the Shepherd's Bush Underground station, the man seen in closed-circuit television images wearing a backpack at a nearby tube station before he boarded the train, and later, wearing a tank-top T-shirt as he fled on a bus.
Dob

-------------------

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken