It's the October Surprise!

Expect plenty of disagreement. Just keep it civil.
czeskleba
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Postby czeskleba » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:00 am

lukpac wrote:On the other hand, what about the fact that he *is* still out there. Why hasn't Bush gotten him yet?


That's a sensible position, but that argument doesn't seem to have resonated with voters since the majority still rate Bush higher than Kerry on "keeping America safe". Unfortunately I think reminders of 9-11 are advantageous to Bush because people still believe he handled things well that day. I'll say it again, someone should have done a commercial featuring the My Pet Goat footage. That could have been this year's Willie Horton, if the Democrats had been smart and cynical enough to use it.

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Postby Mike Hunte » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:37 am

czeskleba wrote:
That's a sensible position, but that argument doesn't seem to have resonated with voters since the majority still rate Bush higher than Kerry on "keeping America safe". Unfortunately I think reminders of 9-11 are advantageous to Bush because people still believe he handled things well that day.


I have to admit that I'm perplexed as to how Bush got a free pass on this one in the public's eyes. He did what ANY President would have done that day. He showed grief, said we'll get the perpetrators, and put on his hard hat to walk around the rubble. What did they expect him to do....howl with laughter? This is common sense, no? Not...some magical (and exclusive) kind of leadership qualities.



I'll say it again, someone should have done a commercial featuring the My Pet Goat footage. That could have been this year's Willie Horton, if the Democrats had been smart and cynical enough to use it.


At which point, they would have been trounced on by the Republican Media Machine for being "cruel, insensitive, cheap, dirty....and playing politics." Next, there would be a Gallup poll asking the American people if they thought the Pet Goat ad was "cruel, insensitive, cheap, dirty...and used for playing politics." Finally, we would all be hearing about the fallout from the ad within the Kerry campaign , and how most Americans find him "cruel, insensitive, cheap, dirty...and guilty of playing politics."



PS - Bush is already accusing Kerry of "playing politics" for even mentioning the words Osama and George in the same sentence. Easy to do when you have the floor. Clear Channel managed to dig up the two words from an interview in some local newspaper today. At which point, they then aired the standard Clear Channel "Bush rebuttal" (TM).

Clear Channel's agenda is so obvious in its local news coverage...it borders on parody. I wonder if they can get their collective heads out of Michael Powell's ass, long enough every day, to take a breath?

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Postby Mike Hunte » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:23 am

I'll just add, that I agree with Luke on this one. Personally, I think it's potentially dangerous for Bush to try and run with this. He really could hang himself if he's not careful.

Which shouldn't be too difficult for him...

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Postby lukpac » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:40 pm

Rspaight wrote:State = Nation

Are we the only country that refers to its subdivisions as "states" instead of the clearer "province" or "territory"? Sure is confusing.


Apparently it depends on the translation.

Bin Laden: 'Your security is in your own hands'

(CNN) -- Osama bin Laden delivered a new videotaped message which aired on the Arab language network Al-Jazeera Friday. This is a transcript of his remarks as translated by CNN senior editor for Arab affairs Octavia Nasr.

You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences.

And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security.

Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them.

We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.

I wonder about you. Although we are ushering the fourth year after 9/11, Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated.

And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.

But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.

During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors.

And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.

We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them.

And those two kinds are full of arrogance and taking money illegally.

The resemblance started when [former President George H.W.] Bush, the father, visited the area, when some of our own were impressed by America and were hoping that the visits would affect and influence our countries.

Then, what happened was that he was impressed by the monarchies and the military regimes, and he was jealous of them staying in power for tens of years, embezzling the public money without any accountability. And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism. And Bush, the father, found it good to install his children as governors and leaders.

We agreed with the leader of the group, Mohammed Atta, to perform all attacks within 20 minutes before [President George W.] Bush and his administration were aware of what was going on. And we never knew that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would leave 50,000 of his people in the two towers to face those events by themselves when they were in the most urgent need of their leader.

He was more interested in listening to the child's story about the goat rather than worry about what was happening to the towers. So, we had three times the time necessary to accomplish the events.

Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential nominee John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

czeskleba
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Postby czeskleba » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:58 pm

Mike Hunte wrote:At which point, they would have been trounced on by the Republican Media Machine for being "cruel, insensitive, cheap, dirty....and playing politics."


Ideally, Kerry or the DNC wouldn't be behind the ad themselves. Someone like moveon.org should have done it. Then Kerry could officially denounce the Goat ad as a cheap shot and avoid any blame for it, but the negative message of the ad would resonate. Like those Swift Boat guys.

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Postby Kjoerup » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:09 pm

krabapple wrote:It's kind of sad/funny when the most sensible talk about 'defeating terror' comes from Osama bin Laden.


That's the dirty little secret (staring the world in the face) that no one in the West is willing to confront. From day one since 9/11, bin Laden is the only one who talks rationally and methodically on the subject, delineating his points and personal justifications one by one. Not saying his POV and the actions it engenders is necessarily agreeable or rendered any less abhorrent, but ask yourself the following: which argument - Bush's (or Kerry's, for that matter; and no, neither one can offer anything resembling a classically defined "argument") or bin Laden's - is going to make the most sense to anyone in the Middle East (barring those in military governments and sheikdoms)? So much for Bush winning any "hearts and minds", eh?

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Postby Mike Hunte » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:31 am

czeskleba wrote:
Ideally, Kerry or the DNC wouldn't be behind the ad themselves. Someone like moveon.org should have done it. Then Kerry could officially denounce the Goat ad as a cheap shot and avoid any blame for it, but the negative message of the ad would resonate. Like those Swift Boat guys.


I see your point there. That might have worked!

From an outside party standpoint, the possibilities could be endless. Perhaps the silent video of Osama's recent taunting, with the sound of Bush's "dead or alive" speech" under it, to serve as a reminder for the masses.

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Postby lukpac » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:58 am

Bin Laden wants Kerry elected, Thompson says

Ex-governor tells voters that Bush will keep America safe

By STEVEN WALTERS
swalters@journalsentinel.com

Posted: Oct. 30, 2004

Monroe - Osama bin Laden's videotaped threat just days before the presidential election was designed to help Democratic Sen. John Kerry get elected, cabinet secretary and former Wisconsin Gov. Tommy G. Thompson said Saturday.

Bin Laden's message was "obvious to anybody that looks at it," Thompson said during campaign speeches in Monroe and Platteville.

"There's no question in my mind, and I think to anybody who knows how close this election is," Thompson said later during an interview. "Osama bin Laden would not give out a video report 72 hours before the election unless he wanted to influence it.

"He would like to see somebody other than George Bush, because George Bush has really taken it to him," added Thompson, the U.S. secretary of health and human services and an appointee of President Bush.

Kerry would not work as hard as Bush has to hunt down bin Laden, Thompson said in Monroe.

Bin Laden "knows that John Kerry will not be a persistent individual that is after him, that is going to be out to destroy him, like he is out to destroy America," Thompson said. "We need to make sure that America is safe."

George Twigg, spokesman for Kerry's Wisconsin campaign, said Bush "hasn't been persistent" about attacking bin Laden. Bush first said he wanted bin Laden "dead or alive" but later said he "wasn't concerned" about him, Twigg said.

Asked about Thompson's claim that bin Laden's threat was designed to help Kerry, Twigg said, "I don't know why bin Laden would want to do that," because Kerry has repeatedly vowed as president to do "whatever it takes" to hunt down, capture or kill terrorists worldwide.

Bush "hasn't made us safer than four years ago, and there's no reason to believe another four years will be any different," Twigg said.

On a Saturday bus tour designed to stitch together support for Bush and Republican candidates in western Wisconsin, Thompson called another terrorist attack on America "logical and likely" if the security measures the Bush administration has put in place are weakened.

If America doesn't continue Bush's security policies, the four-term governor added, "The eventuality is (terrorists) will hit us in our homeland again."

In the videotape made public Friday, bin Laden says the United States can avoid another attack if it stops threatening Muslims. Admitting for the first time that he ordered the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, bin Laden also warns that there are "still reasons" for another attack.

Thompson said he originally thought bin Laden's video would hurt President Bush's re-election chances, but changed his mind after talking with aides, friends and family members. He predicted the terrorist's comments would help Bush win over undecided voters - voters Bush may need to win battleground states such as Wisconsin.

"I've come to the conclusion this has got to help George Bush, because if you are undecided and you see a sworn enemy of America - somebody bragging about what he was able to accomplish to hurt our country and kill thousands of Americans, and have the audacity to brag about it," Thompson said.

Thompson expects Bush, if re-elected, to ask him to stay on as health and human services secretary. Thompson said he would listen but plans to leave his job next year. Thompson also told several fans who pleaded with him to run for governor again in 2006 that he hadn't ruled it out.

Thompson's bus tour contrasted with Kerry's visit to Madison on Wednesday, where the Democrat was introduced to the cheers of thousands of University of Wisconsin-Madison students.

On Saturday, Thompson was greeted by the Madison Brass band, whose members gladly noted that their music wasn't on Springsteen's play list.

"Let's hear Springsteen play that," one band member noted shortly before the group launched into "In Heaven There is No Beer."
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Rspaight » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:00 pm

"He would like to see somebody other than George Bush, because George Bush has really taken it to him," added Thompson, the U.S. secretary of health and human services and an appointee of President Bush.


George Twigg, spokesman for Kerry's Wisconsin campaign, said Bush "hasn't been persistent" about attacking bin Laden. Bush first said he wanted bin Laden "dead or alive" but later said he "wasn't concerned" about him, Twigg said.


I hate it when I'm right.

Bush and bin Laden need each other. Each gives the other amazing power and influence. Bush's foreign policy is the best recruiting tool bin Laden ever had, and the constant threat of TERRATERRATERRA is perhaps the only thing making this a close race.

Of course, you'll never hear the American media admit that. They need bin Laden, too. They got huge ratings from the latest tape.

On Saturday, Thompson was greeted by the Madison Brass band, whose members gladly noted that their music wasn't on Springsteen's play list.

"Let's hear Springsteen play that," one band member noted shortly before the group launched into "In Heaven There is No Beer."


Why the hell would Springsteen want to play that shit?

Ryan
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Postby Dob » Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:51 pm

rspaight wrote:Why the hell would Springsteen want to play that shit?

I think part of that "putdown" quote was meant to imply that Springsteen doesn't have the ability to play polkas. Hey -- this isn't some dumb three chord rock'n'roll that only appeals to kids who don't know any better. This is real music that a manufactured pop star (especially from the opposing political party) couldn't begin to understand.

It reminds me of what Albert King had to say about Hendrix after the two of them briefly jammed together -- "I could've easily played his songs, but he couldn't play mine."
Dob
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Postby Beatlesfan03 » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:18 am

Got linked to this from the Daily Kos:

http://www.trackingterrorism.com/defaul ... &artid=646

A Severe Threat and Warning to the United States'
Source: Terrorist Chatter | 11:49:26 AM EST

An Insurgent on a popular Islamic Website is reporting that he has received an email indicating a severe and grave threat to the United States. He then posts the email he received and asks for other Mujahideen's opinion on the letter.

The letter contains ominous statements such as "We will totally destroy every state that votes for Bush", "All of you Americans will be giving us reason to destroy you, by re-electing Bush into office", "Our weapons will reach each and every house in the United States, our threat is very very serious."

MACHINE TRANSLATION

Peace be upon you O brothers

This message came to me on the mail related to me now a state ...I do not know its correctness

But clear that it sent it is to many of Alaimilat ..One of you appeared its connection this message


Bismillah

We will totally destroy every state who will choose Bush.

All of you Americans will give us the reason to do that by continuing your war against Islam and killing muslims.

Our weapons will reach each and every single house. This threat is very very serious.

The translation :

By Allah in the name of

We will destroy each state that chooses Bush .

You the Americans all are the reason Statona for a work that after your choice of the continuation in the war on the Islam and the killing of the Muslims .

Our weapons will arrive to each house

This threat is very very serious .

The translation ended
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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:00 am

Beatlesfan03 wrote:The letter contains ominous statements such as "We will totally destroy every state that votes for Bush"


Well, at least I'm safe. :twisted:

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Postby Rspaight » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:20 am

I'm doomed. Well, you've got to figure it'll take 'em a while to clean out Montana, Wyoming and such, so I've got a while.

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney