Gay marriage? Why not?

Expect plenty of disagreement. Just keep it civil.
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Grant
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Postby Grant » Sun Aug 03, 2003 3:44 pm

lukpac wrote:I don't think I could have put it better myself, Terry.

I have to believe that people like Robertson have never been in contact with any homosexuals, and only rely on stereotypes and misconceptions. I can't think of any other (logical) reason for their thinking.

Then again, I guess things aren't always logical.


Shit! Robertson probably has them working with him right under his nose! He probably has family members who are homosexuals.

Man, it's to the point where I don't even care anymore. I like women, and am married, and gays getting married isn't going to threaten me any. 'Sides, guys and gals should be happy with the idea of being able to easily find out if someone is gay so they won't accidentally hit on one. And, I have more important things to worry about than who is doin' who up the butt. :roll:

Man, let God deal with them if they are wrong. I don't care. Live and let live. The world would be a nicer place if people would just leave others alone.

I don't like the idea of gays being able to get married. And, I still don't want any kid of mine to see it or know aboutthis type of thing. Hypocritical? Maybe.

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Postby lukpac » Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:19 pm

Er...I'm not sure what you're trying to say Grant. On the one hand you seem to be fine with gay marriage, but on the other, you say you don't like the idea.

I'm also not quite sure what you mean by the "accidentally hit on" comment. How is hitting on a gay person any different from hitting on somebody who simply isn't interested, or who is with someone but not married, or who is married but not wearing their ring? The world isn't going to crumble.

As far as being "wrong", well...what would you say if I said "let God (if there is such a thing) deal with blacks if they are wrong"? That's a pretty silly statement, is it not? Homosexuality isn't a choice, just as skin color isn't.

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Postby Grant » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:10 pm

lukpac wrote:Er...I'm not sure what you're trying to say Grant. On the one hand you seem to be fine with gay marriage, but on the other, you say you don't like the idea.


Well, that comes from me not having been knowingly exposed to gays while growing up. The things you are conditioned to early in life die hard, especially if one grew up as a Southern Baptist. I grew up in a different place and time, where gays were not visible or held with any respect, and were ridiculed. In fact, many in my generation didn't understand what that was until our teens. Now they are on TV, in the movies, magazines, books, news, and holding hands walking down the street. You just didn't see that twenty-five years ago, unless you grew up Catholic. An analogy might be a white person, growing up around all white people in a racist community, trying to get used to having black people around, or vice versa. Imagine either trying to get used to interracial couples, after being conditioned to believe that races should not mix, especially if is is reinforced by spiritual beliefs.

I'm also not quite sure what you mean by the "accidentally hit on" comment. How is hitting on a gay person any different from hitting on somebody who simply isn't interested, or who is with someone but not married, or who is married but not wearing their ring? The world isn't going to crumble.


Unless you've been there, done that, you don't know what that can do to someone's ego. It's not like "Chasing Amy", you know!

As far as being "wrong", well...what would you say if I said "let God (if there is such a thing) deal with blacks if they are wrong"? That's a pretty silly statement, is it not? Homosexuality isn't a choice, just as skin color isn't.


No, it's not a silly statement. My point is that IF we find out in the end of our existience that what homosexuals do is wrong, unnatural, or whatever, it's not for us to say. That's what I meant. In other words, we shouldn't judge. It's just our jobs to treat each other with civility. I fully believe the majority of homosexuals are born that way. We are not sure how or why, that it just is. I think if people could choose to not be homosexual, they wouldn't be.

So, I kind of understand where Bush was coming from. His mistake may have been to pubically comment on it as the president. It's just that he wasn't speaking to a significant segment of the population. It's like he was trying to play to both his christian right constituents and then everybody else.

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Postby lukpac » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:47 am

Let gay couples marry
6:07 PM 8/09/03


There's absolutely no doubt: Certain segments of our society endanger the very future of marriage. Divorce is rampant as adultery, abuse and plain selfishness hew many unions. More and more, cohabiting couples shack up without a visit to an altar or a judge. Young folks are having kids out of wedlock in droves, creating social and tax burdens and driving up the number of single-parent households.

Clearly, the institution of marriage is under dire threat from many quarters. The gay community, however, is not one of them. In fact, some gay couples want to get married.

But that request has been met with shock and dismay by the Vatican, our president and a host of Wisconsin lawmakers. Opponents argue that letting gay couples marry would destroy marriage and family as we know them today. That view is based on misinformation, ignorance and plain bigotry. What is marriage really for? Opponents of gay marriage would like you to believe that marriage is a sacred, static, time-honored custom. Messing with it would imperil the very foundation of our society, they say. This would be a powerful argument if it weren't nonsense.

In fact, the concept and practice of marriage has been redefined to suit different times, attitudes and cultures. For example, marriage once represented a union between a man and his property - until the property, women, rebelled and demanded more rights. Until relatively recently, interracial marriage was banned in parts of this country. In some other countries, parents still arrange marriages; love and commitment aren't considerations. Polygamy is the norm in some cultures today - while others protect the institution of marriage by stoning people to death if they commit adultery. Not here, fortunately, as the justice system would quickly run out of rocks.

Nevertheless, in our culture, many people - not just conservatives - believe that stable, successful families form the foundation of society. We must encourage marriage to create these families and confer legal protection to them.

Allowing gay marriage doesn't defeat this objective: It promotes it.

Today, gay men and lesbians - especially those with children - should no longer be denied the same social and legal status as the rest of America's families. Allowing gay marriage is an important step up the path to equality.

Reconciling church and state Religious principles have often impelled human rights advances, but in the case of gay marriage, the moral compass of some religious leaders has skewed away from fairness and equality.

Reasonable people wouldn't sanction discrimination against divorcees, single parents, unmarried couples or teen-age mothers just because the way they live contradicts some citizens' religious views. So why do we tolerate discrimination against gay men and lesbians because of attitudes based on religious teachings?

Same-sex couples appear ready to accept the full range of legal obligations and moral demands of marriage with equal or greater commitment as opposite-sex pairings. The argument that same-sex marriage will somehow undermine traditional families doesn't hold up.

Legal gay marriage wouldn't infringe on religious freedom. No one need abandon their deepest-held religious beliefs about homosexuals, no matter how bigoted. No minister need marry a gay couple if his church forbids it. Achieving legal parity To promote marriage, special legal rights and protections have been established for married couples in areas such as inheritance, health benefits, taxes and child custody.

These advantages are denied to the nearly 600,000 same-sex couples who identified themselves on the 2000 census (and many more who probably kept their union a secret from census counters). Thousands of children are being raised by gay couples who cannot share the financial security and legal sanctuary enjoyed by married couples with kids. We should strengthen and protect these families in the same way we support all other types of families.

The critics are right that gay couples want more than a piece of paper from the state. The "homosexual agenda," as scaremongers like to call it, calls for nothing less than equality in the aspects of everyday married life taken for granted by straight couples. Politics vs. reality The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1967 that marriage is a fundamental freedom, and states cannot keep a mixed-race couple from marrying. So why don't gay couples enjoy the same basic privilege of our free society?

The answer rests mostly in fear and ignorance of gay lifestyles, which anti-gay propagandists seek to equate with incest and pedophilia. Lately, politicians who buy this defamatory bunkum have been saying that the nation must change its Constitution to limit marriage to the union of a man and a woman.

Aside from the fact that government has no business defining marriage in a religious context, the drive for a constitutional amendment puts social conservatives in the contradictory posture of promoting marriage for some people while trying to outlaw it for others.

In any case, laws governing marriage ought to remain the responsibility of state governments - and we believe Wisconsin ought to be among the first to update its laws to offer equality in marriage to gay men and lesbians. Why not settle for civil unions? Meaning well, some lawmakers plan to forward a bill for a statewide domestic partner registry that would help formalize same-sex unions. But the bill drafted by Rep. Frank Boyle, D-Superior, creates a structure - "separate but equal" - that ultimately enshrines second-class status for gays and lesbians.

The Democrats, always confused and compromised, see their drive for same-sex civil unions as a way to avoid a losing debate over redefining marriage. This strategy is doomed from the start - because anti-gay factions want to make political hay with a marriage debate.

The Legislature is more likely to pass a "marriage defense act" that excludes same-sex unions from the definition of marriage. Perhaps duped by inflammatory rhetoric, more than a third of the state's lawmakers have signed on to this ill-conceived bill. What must be done instead The Wisconsin State Journal editorial board has traditionally opposed government meddling in private lives; obstacles to strong families; and unequal protection under the law. State and national "marriage defense" measures deserve defeat on all those counts.

But it's important to do more than simply oppose legislation that would inflict these wrongs on a minority. Denying gay couples the right to marry condemns them to second-class citizenship and discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation. This is plainly wrong.

If gay couples want to try marriage, bring 'em on. Maybe by applying a queer eye to the straight marriage, we can still save this essential but fading rite from history's dustbin. Given the zeal with which some gay couples are pursuing the right to marry, they may set a new standard for commitment.
The campaign for gay marriage has a long way to go. More than changing laws, it involves changing minds. But Wisconsin, led by a Republican governor, passed the nation's first gay rights law in 1982. We could once again show our nation the right path. The cause awaits courageous political leadership.

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Postby balthazar » Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:28 am

This is one of the most lucid editorials I've read in a long time.

I agree it's time for Wisconsin to step up to the plate and lead the way.

This anti gay marriage movement seems to amount to a new form of segregation, one that for some naive reason seems to be acceptable right now to a lot of people. One would hope that common sense would prevail, but it seldom does these days.
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Postby Grant » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:28 am

Actually, according to some recent polls, disapproval of gay marriages is rising.

My final thought? Many gays live together already as if they are married. Let them marry. It wasn't too long ago that it was on the books in many states that prohibited interracial (black/whites) to marry. We know that was silly. If people want to be happy, let them. Life is too short. I'm not gay, so this doesn't affect me anyway.

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Postby Rspaight » Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:25 pm

I'm not gay, so this doesn't affect me anyway.


Yeah, precisely. I have yet to figure out how *anybody* would be harmed by legalizing gay marriage. It just doesn't a negative impact on anyone or anything, apart from the sensibilities of those people who are far too worried about what other people are doing in bed.

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Postby Grant » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:32 am

I don't care what other people are doing in bed. I don't want them to care what i'm doing.

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Postby Xenu » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:50 pm

Rspaight wrote:
I'm not gay, so this doesn't affect me anyway.


Yeah, precisely. I have yet to figure out how *anybody* would be harmed by legalizing gay marriage. It just doesn't a negative impact on anyone or anything, apart from the sensibilities of those people who are far too worried about what other people are doing in bed.

Ryan


You've kinda answered your own question. The main point: Certain People want to paint America as a fundamentally Christian nation. The founding fathers were Christian, all of our laws are inherently Christian (nevermind the argument that our laws are actually based on a traditional Liberal approach, with deprivation of property/life categorized as the template for "crime"). We kinda let that all slide during the deep, dark ages of the 60s--heck, we let Got Live get released, clearly our lowest point--but then Jerry Falwell got us back on track, and with the donations Tilton got for us, we're going to pave the way for the next civil war: us Holy Christians versus the godless heathens (people who bought the last Bowie album).

It's amazing to note how comparitively recent this trend is. The religious right had largely died a death until its ressurection in the late seventies. The idea that things have "always been this way," and that it's only now that "radical groups" are pushing their agendas is inherently absurd.

But to the topic at hand. Re. gay marriage...well, I'd be happy to just euphemise it to "civil union," give it the exact same benefits, and hope the Christian right doesn't realize/care. Lots of people carp on how that's a violation of the whole "separate but equal" ideal, but I'd argue that it's more of a "different name, but exactly the same" issue. If the religious right is really going to hold marriage as the epitome of human relationships (nevermind that gays are, as previous posters have pointed out, hilariously minor insofar as threats to matrimony are concerned), let them, and carve out a new, secular version of the benefits for everyone else to enjoy.

Re. the gay marriage will lead to polygamy, etc...folks, polygamy is a legal term. If one guy is cohabitating with seventeen women, and there's no evidence of coercion, et cetera, I don't necessarily support our government's right to go in and stormtrooper up the place on the basis of the multiple partners (now, I realize that situations WITHOUT coercion/abuse are fairly rare...I'm just pointing out my particular objection here). But I'm nuts, because I write bad ALO poetry.

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Postby Xenu » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:51 pm

In an effort to be less trite:

It does bother me that said particular life decision isn't afforded to me. It bothers me less now, because it's the furthest thing from my mind, but I assume it'd get more personal the instant situations were different.

I don't challenge Pat Robertson's inherent morality superiority. I challenge whether the fuck it matters, and whether my government should care that he's holier than I.
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Postby balthazar » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:41 pm

I don't challenge Pat Robertson's inherent morality superiority. I challenge whether the fuck it matters, and whether my government should care that he's holier than I.


It doesn't matter, and the government shouldn't care; that, to me, is what freedom of religion is all about. It's not only freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. Unfortunately, the conservative players in this game are trying to make marriage a strictly religious idea, based solely on the Christian idea of marriage. I think we can all agree that not only is this idea conceited, it's also becoming outdated.

By the way, I think I would challenge Pat Robertson's inherent moral superiority. Hell, I challenge the Pope's moral superiority.

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Postby Xenu » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:10 pm

Well, I don't deign to play in the same moral arena as they.

The thing is, it isn't enough for them to define it as a strictly religious idea. They fund studies (run by thinktanks like the Family Research Institute) that supposedly show how homosexuality is patently "inferior" to heterosexuality. A snippet:

------------------------------
Death and disease accompany promiscuous and unsanitary sexual activity. 70%25 to 78%x,13 of gays reported having had a sexually transmitted disease. The proportion with intestinal parasites (worms, flukes, amoeba) ranged from 25%18 to 39%19 to 59%.20 As of 1992, 83% of U.S. AIDS in whites had occurred in gays.21 The Seattle sexual diary study3? reported that gays had, on a yearly average:

fellated 108 men and swallowed semen from 48;
exchanged saliva with 96;
experienced 68 penile penetrations of the anus; and
ingested fecal material from 19.
------------------------------

What's the point of the above? To disgust people. Of course, plenty of heterosexual practices (and let's not even pass around the word "exclusive," because there are really no exclusive acts to any orientation) are unsavory as you decide to make them sound. The Family Research Institute doesn't want people to see "people who happen to be gay;" they want them to see cum-guzzling girly men who might spit spunk in your daughter's face.

Then you have sites like WorldNetDaily 'n the AFA, which feature "representitives" in fits of histronics screeching about how two male parents doesn't provide the "balance required by nature" for a child to grow up. Nevermind that the "ideal" family is almost a myth anyway, and there're tons of variables that determine how a child will turn out, many of 'em potentially due to pre-birth programming (i.e. is a child having two male parents better or worse than the birth mother not quite getting the correct amount of folic acid?). It's *totally ridiculous*, there *is no ideal*, and "studies" show absolutely nothing worthy in this regard. I liken it to how every other day, we learn how something else might give us cancer. Big whoop.

I remember one WorldNetDaily article in particular that really clued me in to how these people work. The writer of the article was OUTRAGED...has our POLITICALLY CORRECT SOCIETY given an OK to homosexual RAPE OF CHILDREN? What was he talking about? Well, apparently, there was a case in Nevada where a detective hired by a man was found to be sleeping with the man's 16-year old boy. The district attourny, meanwhile, refused to press charges, noting that it would be "discrimination" to charge the detective with a crime. IS THERE NO JUSTICE? WON'T THIS PEDOPHILE BE PUNISHED? WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? THOSE PANSY-ASS LIBERAL NAMBLA ORGANIZATIONS DON'T SEEM TO CARE.

Nowhere in the article was it mentioned that 16 is the age of consent in Nevada. The "discrimination" comment was made because, if the boy had been a girl, nobody would have cared one bit...thus, it would be discriminatory to apply a different standard to homosexual conduct.

A lie by omission, in other words. Not that the other side doesn't do it too. Still, it's a fairly severe eye-opener.
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Postby lukpac » Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:59 pm

I just wrote this as a letter to the editor. Don't know if it will be published or not...:

Several readers hold the belief that only a mother and a father should raise a child, and a gay marriage can't be as good as a heterosexual marriage for raising children. To them I ask: what about single parents? Should we make it a crime to be a single parent? How is having two loving parents - regardless of sex - any worse than having just one? For that matter, there are often instances where children of single parents (be it via divorce, death, absence, etc.) are better off than those of married heterosexuals. Clearly heterosexual marriage is not necessarily the only or best way to raise children.

As far as "God's opinion" goes, not everybody is a Christian, nor does everybody believe in a god (or gods). One group's religious beliefs - no matter how large that group is - should not infringe on the rights of others. Should we outlaw pork or beef because some religions forbid the consumption of them? Most people would probably laugh at such a suggestion. So why should we base our marriage laws on "God's opinion", as if the people opposing homosexual marriage really know what that opinion is anyway? The answer of course, is we shouldn't.

It seems clear to me that people who oppose homosexual marriage have never actually socialized with gay people and gay couples. If they had, they would realize that they are regular people just like everyone else. People shouldn't be condemned simply because others are afraid of the unknown.

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Postby balthazar » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:09 am

...afraid of the unknown.


I think you may have hit the heart of the problem. People are afraid of the unknown. This, in a way, even touches on our discussion on conservatism vs. liberalism. The conservatives, those who tend to see things as black and white, good and evil, this or that, see homosexuality as evil, simply because it's different, and they don't bother trying to understand it. They fear it because it is different, and therefore it must be stopped.

Of course, plenty of heterosexual practices (and let's not even pass around the word "exclusive," because there are really no exclusive acts to any orientation) are unsavory as you decide to make them sound.

fellated 108 men and swallowed semen from 48;
exchanged saliva with 96;
experienced 68 penile penetrations of the anus; and
ingested fecal material from 19


Of course, no one bothers to check the corresponding numbers among heterosexual couples, which in the long run is far more dangerous, I think. The apathy and the ignorant idea that AIDS is a "gay man's disease" is what has caused such an explosion in STDs in general in the heterosexual population.

In the long run, not allowing or explicitly prohibiting homosexual marriages could be a far worse thing than prohibiting them for the peace of mind of those against it. One of the far-reaching problems that should be considered is whether prohibiting gay marriage may pose a public health problem. Could allowing these unions, and therefore legally encouraging the monogamy these couples want slow the spread of STDs?
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Postby Rspaight » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:53 am

In the long run, not allowing or explicitly prohibiting homosexual marriages could be a far worse thing than prohibiting them for the peace of mind of those against it. One of the far-reaching problems that should be considered is whether prohibiting gay marriage may pose a public health problem. Could allowing these unions, and therefore legally encouraging the monogamy these couples want slow the spread of STDs?


An interesting point. While I would hesitate to say that gay couples' decisions re: long-term committment are hugely influenced by the legality of gay marriage, it probably does play at least a small part. I do agree that legalizing marriage or "civil unions" or some equal legal standing would result in gay long-term relationships becoming more "mainstream." A big part of the reason for the cliche of the promiscuous nature of gay relationships is that they're socially unacceptable in some circles, and keeping a relationship secret gets harder the longer it goes on. A bunch of one-night-stands is easier to hide.

I do find it amusing that the religious right in one breath demonizes gays for their "promiscuity" and in the next blasts the idea of gay marriage.

It seems clear to me that people who oppose homosexual marriage have never actually socialized with gay people and gay couples. If they had, they would realize that they are regular people just like everyone else. People shouldn't be condemned simply because others are afraid of the unknown.


Exactly. For most of these people, the only information they have about gay people are the tapes Falwell and Robertson sell of the more "outlandish" segments of big-city pride parades.

Ryan
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