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Hugging A Dead (SACD) Horse

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:20 am
by Kjoerup
Why in the world are people at so many "other" forums (like Audio Asylum and SH) continuing to debate the "Is SACD (and/or DVD-A) dead?" I'm well aware that these people have less than half a brain, but it does seem obvious to me that anyone in possession of even 1/35 of a mere brain stem can tell that, after five-plus years of marketing failure, these formats (which no one asked for and, obviously, no one wants) went nowhere, are going nowhere, and have by this time overstayed their dubious welcome. Denial is a strong animal, yes, but, man oh man, why don't they just give it up?

I'm frankly amazed that the question about the "potential" of these formats continues to be asked. No one was whining about the fate of Elcaset after its obvious failure. (Well maybe if the internet had existed back then, the pollyannas would've had a forum in which to revel in denial.)

Now, true, a few token SACD titles are still trickling out, but this format(and DVD-A) seem to be about as dead as dead can be. Who in their right mind can believe otherwise?

[As for DualDisc ... yeah, right, that'll really go far. For all the idiocy (stupid formats and copy protection) that's been pulled by the music industry over the last few years, I'm sick of it all, to be honest. At this point I'd be happy downloading lossless or even high-bitrate lossy files and forget all about the damn discs.]

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:34 am
by Rspaight
SACD Hybrid had a shot, but the royalty issues killed it (publishing companies wanting triple royalties for SACDs because of the surround, stereo and CD versions included). Stores' insistence on stocking hybrids in the SACD ghetto instead of the CD section didn't help, either. Now, we have 461 Ocean Boulevard coming out on 10/26 as both a 2-CD Deluxe Edition with mega bonus tracks and a single-SACD of just the album. Who the heck is going to buy the SACD under those conditions?

I can see SACD limping along a while longer as a niche item, but DVD-A seems dead as a doornail. CD is the last mainstream physical music carrier.

Ryan

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:26 am
by lukpac
I have to wonder...if costs are that much of an issue, why make these "album only" releases (Allman's, 461, Slowhand) hybrids at all?

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:34 pm
by Patrick M
Rspaight wrote:Who the heck is going to buy the SACD under those conditions?

People like you and McGoodwin. Or was that supposed to rhetorical?

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:57 pm
by Xenu
Lord no. I don't buy single-layer SACDs anymore unless I see them for *very* cheap.

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:00 pm
by Rspaight
There's no such thing as a rhetorical question, just superfluous answers.

I might have bought an SACD DE, but I'm skipping both the separate releases. I'm not a big enough fan of that period of Clapton to buy both, and getting one or the other would tick me off.

I'll probably get the Disraeli Gears DE, though...

Ryan

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:02 pm
by Rspaight
Xenu wrote:Lord no. I don't buy single-layer SACDs anymore unless I see them for *very* cheap.


461 and Slowhand are going to be hybrids, I think.

But no, I'm out of the single-layer game, too.

Ryan

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:49 am
by Rob P
I don't like SACD. I've been down that dead end road, and I think that the sound quality is lacking, and the whole concept is a cynical marketing ploy. The Emperor's wearing no clothes.

I compared Steve's Zombies Greatest Hits SACD/CD on two players. One is a Sony DVP NS-500V, the budget champ thought of so lovingly at Sh.tv. The other player is a Toshiba 3960 DVD/CD player. I thought the CD layer played back on the Toshiba sounded much better than the SACD on the Sony. On the Sony, the bass was flabby and soft. The treble sounded smeared and distorted, particularly on sibilants and cymbals. On the CD layer, I could hear the bed of instruments better, they had superior detail, definition and imaging. The CD layer sounded so much better, it's not even funny.

I did the same thing with the Rolling Stones's Beggars Banquet. Same results as above. The same thing with Steve's Ritchie Valens Greatest Hits, same results. Bob Dylan's Highway 61 Revisited SACD/CD....good god, what a difference. The harmonica on the SACD layer was torture to listen to. On the CD layer, it was loud, but tolerable.

What are these people hearing, who claim that SACD is better? What a waste of time and energy. We could have so many more quality reissues at this point, if it wasn't for all this stupidity with lining up royalties for the SACD layer.

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:41 am
by lukpac
Rob P wrote:I thought the CD layer played back on the Toshiba sounded much better than the SACD on the Sony.


What about the CD layer on both?

I'm just wondering if the differences are layer differences, or player differences. I personally haven't heard much difference at all between layers on the discs I've heard (mostly ABKCO stuff).

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:44 am
by Patrick M
I thought the DVP-NS500V was supposed to be a pretty crappy SACD player.

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:51 am
by lukpac
The SCD-CE775 was the darling for a while... Don't know about now.

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:03 am
by Rob P
Patrick M wrote:I thought the DVP-NS500V was supposed to be a pretty crappy SACD player.


It could be.....I bought it because I heard at the time it's the best way to start with SACD playback. Besides, why would Sony release a player that plays their proprietary technology in a crappy way? I guess that question doesn't need to be answered.....Sony hasn't done their own technology any favors over the years.

The only other SACD player I've heard is the $11,000 Linn Unidisk. I listened to it at a stereo store. I thought it sounded good in that mega-buck system, but I didn't take it home with me to listen.

I wish there was some way on the Sony player to hear the CD layer of a hybrid disk. Once the player sees an SACD layer, it locks it on SACD. It makes cross comparisons a little more difficult. I can say, though, that CD's sound better on the Toshiba than CD's and SACD's played on the Sony. Maybe the Sony is a crap player all around, but I don't feel the need to listen to another SACD player at this point.

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:21 am
by lukpac
Rob P wrote:I wish there was some way on the Sony player to hear the CD layer of a hybrid disk. Once the player sees an SACD layer, it locks it on SACD. It makes cross comparisons a little more difficult. I can say, though, that CD's sound better on the Toshiba than CD's and SACD's played on the Sony. Maybe the Sony is a crap player all around, but I don't feel the need to listen to another SACD player at this point.


That's...strange. I don't have one of those, but the 775 has a CD/SACD button to switch layers.

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:26 am
by Rspaight
I wish there was some way on the Sony player to hear the CD layer of a hybrid disk.


There's a button on the remote labeled "CD/SACD" -- if you press it while the disc is stopped, it will switch the layers.

The SCD-CE775 was the darling for a while... Don't know about now.


I've got both the 500 and the 775, but I've never ripped everything apart to do a comparison (they're installed in different systems).

Ryan

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:42 am
by Rob P
:oops:

I read (I thought I read) the long instruction manual very carefully, and I couldn't find any mention of switching between the two layers. The one specific thing I remember mentioned in the instructions is that SACD is selected automatically when a SACD is loaded. When I get home from work this afternoon, I'll try it out. I've got lots of listening to do.