Vinyl "improvements"?

From Edison cylinders to pre-amps to ProTools: talk about it here.
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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:39 am

CitizenDan wrote:It seems some recordings are simply best suited to analog reproduction. There are probably a lot of factors at work there, from the circumstances of the recording to the quality of the vinyl.


I think I've mentioned this before, but I really don't believe there's anything that can only be "captured" on LP. Or perhaps nothing that can't be translated to another medium (ie, CD). That is to say, while an LP *may* have "fair dust", that shouldn't go away when recorded to CD.

Recently I've been working on remastering a CD to sound like the original LP (which sounds really good). I've gotten pretty close, but there's still something about the LP that makes it "sparkle". Now, perhaps it's just an EQ difference, and I haven't quite figured out what that is yet.

Speaking of which...does anyone know a good way to match EQ from one version to another. Is there some type of spectral analysis tool that would come in handy for this?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:52 am

nt
Last edited by Ess Ay Cee Dee on Mon May 02, 2005 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:15 am

Ess Ay Cee Dee wrote:Luke, the difference can probably be attributed to vinyl's inherent distortion. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that; I have plenty of LP's that sound incredible. I don't think you're going to capture that vinyl "sound" perfectly without deliberately adding distortion to the signal. MHO, of course.


I guess I'm not quite convinced it's distortion. I'm certainly hearing distortion on the LP, but it isn't the "good" kind. The CD sounds far better in that regard. There's a "clearness" or "openness" to the LP that (thus far) the CD lacks. The EQ *is* still different in places (which I can't put my finger on), so it might just be that.

I think I need to post an A/B/C.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby CitizenDan » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:19 am

Yep, even to a dummy like me, there's a tangible difference between pre-embargo vinyl and post-embargo.

In fact, to hear Steve Hoffman tell it, early pressings of Captain Fantastic were so noisy that the music was actually inaudible! Amazing!
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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:22 am

nt
Last edited by Ess Ay Cee Dee on Mon May 02, 2005 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:25 am

nt
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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:26 am

Ess Ay Cee Dee wrote:How old is the album in question? If you're talking about something from thirty years ago, there could have been some degradation to the master tape between the original LP and the CD reissue. Then there's the fact that the tape was more than likely being played back on a totally different machine when the CD was prepared.


1971.

Different playback isn't out of the question. I'm not convinced about tape degredation, though - there don't seem to be *any* problems with lack of high end, dropouts, etc.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Patrick M » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:27 pm

Ess Ay Cee Dee wrote:How old is the album in question?

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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:30 pm

Patrick M wrote:Image


No, that's the one I got a reel-to-reel of.

Their next album is the one I'm tinkering with.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Patrick M » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:47 pm

I didn't know David Crosby was in M P.
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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:54 pm

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"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby krabapple » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:21 pm

lukpac wrote:
CitizenDan wrote:It seems some recordings are simply best suited to analog reproduction. There are probably a lot of factors at work there, from the circumstances of the recording to the quality of the vinyl.


I think I've mentioned this before, but I really don't believe there's anything that can only be "captured" on LP. Or perhaps nothing that can't be translated to another medium (ie, CD). That is to say, while an LP *may* have "fair dust", that shouldn't go away when recorded to CD.

Recently I've been working on remastering a CD to sound like the original LP (which sounds really good). I've gotten pretty close, but there's still something about the LP that makes it "sparkle". Now, perhaps it's just an EQ difference, and I haven't quite figured out what that is yet.



Wouldn't it be more straighforward to track down a clean copy of the LP and digitize that?
Is the LP rare?

Speaking of which...does anyone know a good way to match EQ from one version to another. Is there some type of spectral analysis tool that would come in handy for this?



The frequency analysis tool in Audition (Cool Edit) could be used for that, but the more resolution you wanted -- in the sense of matching oin a Hz-by-Hz basis, rather than more broadly over a range of frequencies -- the more tedious it would get. There' s no automatic tool in AUdition to 'map' one frequency profile to another. Spectral analysis might help for getting you in the ballpark of similar if two versions start out *very* different.
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Postby krabapple » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:24 pm

lukpac wrote:
Ess Ay Cee Dee wrote:Luke, the difference can probably be attributed to vinyl's inherent distortion. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that; I have plenty of LP's that sound incredible. I don't think you're going to capture that vinyl "sound" perfectly without deliberately adding distortion to the signal. MHO, of course.


I guess I'm not quite convinced it's distortion. I'm certainly hearing distortion on the LP, but it isn't the "good" kind. The CD sounds far better in that regard. There's a "clearness" or "openness" to the LP that (thus far) the CD lacks. The EQ *is* still different in places (which I can't put my finger on), so it might just be that.

I think I need to post an A/B/C.


The 'openness' and 'air' of LP is a form of euphonic distortion -- phase distortion, to be specific.

see e.g. this post
"I recommend that you delete the Rancid Snakepit" - Grant

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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:28 pm

krabapple wrote:Wouldn't it be more straighforward to track down a clean copy of the LP and digitize that?


I've already got 3 copies of the LP; one of them was sealed. All have some very bad inner groove distortion in the same places.

Is the LP rare?


Yes.

The frequency analysis tool in Audition (Cool Edit) could be used for that, but the more resolution you wanted -- in the sense of matching oin a Hz-by-Hz basis, rather than more broadly over a range of frequencies -- the more tedious it would get. There' s no automatic tool in AUdition to 'map' one frequency profile to another. Spectral analysis might help for getting you in the ballpark of similar if two versions start out *very* different.


I'm pretty much already in the ballpark.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:35 pm

krabapple wrote:The 'openness' and 'air' of LP is a form of euphonic distortion -- phase distortion, to be specific.

see e.g. this post


It would be interesting to know how much is that and how much is simply EQ.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD