Rolling Stones 'Time Trip Vol.5'

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:34 pm

Mother sounds pretty good. I'll have to compare it later.

Did you ever grab the Bartley copy of 19th? Even with my remastering it still has totally different EQ from TT...
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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JWB
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Postby JWB » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:35 pm

lukpac wrote:Did you ever grab the Bartley copy of 19th? Even with my remastering it still has totally different EQ from TT...


No. Never heard it. Is it better than TT5? I think TT5 sounds pretty good.

Can you upload a FLAC?

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Postby JWB » Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:21 pm

I've just heard the Bartleys and they definitely sound better than TT5. The only downside is that they've been compressed.

I've tweaked "Mother" yet again. I noticed a treble increase at a certain point so I fixed that. I also worked on the overall EQ a little more and removed some clicks during the guitar outro. Now I think I've got it...here's an MP3 this time...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QQNL7X1S

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Postby lukpac » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:09 pm

I'm appreciating the remastering, but man, while it's no fault of yours, it sounds like a bad Tom Dowd Stax redub. All that hiss...

Best we have for now anyway.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Aftermath » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:08 pm

Aftermath wrote:
Is the version of Going Home here a fold down? That'd be my guess, but I haven't done any sort of comparison against other versions to confirm.


Lukpac wrote:
It's unclear to me, considering the false starts. Have those *ever* shown up before? It could have been a mono mix/dub of the session reel.


I compared the TT 5 version to a London mono lp and a WG Aftermath CD. The lp and WG cd (mono'd) sounded nearly identical in terms of relative levels for the instruments and vocals. Aside from the odd eq differences on the TT 5 version, it sounded about the same as well, including the fadeout. Don't know if the US LP is a fold down, but for this track at least I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Agreed about the possiblitiy of TT 5 being a mono mix/dub of the session reel.

All this isn't really much of a concern though--the other TT 5 tracks are more interesting (to me) in terms of what they offer.

Regarding the false starts, I've never heard them before either.
Last edited by Aftermath on Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JWB
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Postby JWB » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:36 pm

BTW...I think the stereo balance is off on these stereo Stones songs, including the two Bartleys. It seems like they've evened out/normalized the channels on all this stuff, and the vocals and stuff that are supposed to appear in the center are appearing mid-right. People have been referring to "The Last Time" as a "music left / vocals right" mix which is incorrect. The lead vocals are supposed to be in the center and the backing vocals to the right. It just sounds like the vocals are to the right because the channels are out of balance. After you lower the right channel a few dB, the waveform looks rather silly, but when you listen to it in headphones, the vocals are centered and it sounds "correct". The stereo mixes of Mother and 19th have loud overdubs in the right channel and the vocals appear mid-right, but when you lower the right channel a few db's, the backing track in the left becomes more prominent and the vocal becomes centered, with the overdubs appearing at a lower volume in the right. This especially improves "Mother" (see my sample above), because the rhythm track becomes more prominent. Any thoughts on this?

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Postby lukpac » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:06 pm

Yeah, that's been something I've been saying/doing for years. When I remastered the Bartley tracks, I lowered the right channels by quite a bit. Not only do the vocals center, but the rhythm track is no longer buried by the overdubs. Not quite sure why these work out that way, while tracks like Satisfaction have the overdub tracks far too loud *with* the vocals centered.

I think the last time around (heh), I even went as far as OOPSing to get the vocals as perfectly centered as I could. I think that may have also involved shifting the channels slightly to get them closer to proper alignment.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby lukpac » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:37 pm

Wow, stumbled across this after several years:

http://www.bsnpubs.com/chat/chat9711.html

"Name: Bob Fink
From: Connecticuit
Time: 1997-11-10 19:09:00
Comments: Hi to all: I thought I'd share some interesting information regarding the possible whereabouts of "true stereo" Rolling Stones tapes. In 1980, I was recording with my band at Sigma Sound studios in Philidelphia (formally Cameo/Parkway's location; more on that to follow). During the sessions, the producer, an avid record collector like myself, treated me to a listen to a two-track master tape of several Rolling Stones songs in glorious wide-stereo mixes! Needless to say, I nearly loaded up my "Depends" at what I was hearing. The songs included "Satisfaction", "The Last Time", "19th Nervous Breakdown" (2 Versions, including a totally alternate vocal take), "Get Off My Cloud","Have You Seen Your Mother...", "Paint It Black" (minus several overdubs), "Heart Of stone", and "Goin' Home." Whew! The real kicker here is that Cameo/Parkway Records was at the same location as Sigma Sound Studios was doing business from (at least up till my visit in '80). Now, the obvious connection here is, of course, Allan Klein; owner of ABCKO, and the keeper of the rights of release for all of the aforementioned material! It may well be that there are more tapes at Sigma that have yet to be unearthed. I did get a quick look into one of the storage areas and saw master tapes of such artists as The Orlons, Chubby Checker and Dee Dee Sharp, so Klein was still paying storage fees or something up 'til '80 anyway! I thought I'd open this little "can o' worms" to see if my hunches might be correct. Oh, and by the way, I did manage to secure a copy of the Stones tape for myself! Thanks for a fabulous resource on oldies. Callahan rules!! allan"

Not sure about the lack of overdubs on PIB, but there's that same list of tracks again...
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Aftermath » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:28 pm

Wow--that's something else. ]Looks like more evidence of the TT 5 stereo songs coming from a single tape source.

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Postby lukpac » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:17 pm

As I noted privately, it was the same original source I mentioned after all. So perhaps there is just one original source for all of this.

Did you want to post your Goldmine article?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby lukpac » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:10 pm

Er...here it is. No revelations, but interesting nonetheless.

Goldmine/May 1983


BOTH SIDES NOW


THE STORY OF STEREO ROCK AND ROLL


The “Lost” Stereo Rolling Stones Hits


By Mike Callahan


Every once in a while I get really irritated at some stupid, lazy, or greedy thing done by a record company. I used to be bothered by record companies which recorded in stereo and then didn't release the songs in stereo, but over the years I've become resigned to the fact that if no stereo master exists, record companies aren't likely to spend the money to remaster for stereo. I don't agree with it, but that's just a fact of life. With the Rolling Stones' hits, I get more irritated as each day goes by. What possible reason could there be for sitting on fully mixed stereo versions of the Rolling Stones' big '60s hits for 17 years? What possible reason, could there be for giving record buyers in­ferior rechanneled stereo all this time when all they had to do was put the stereo on disc? Are we going to have to put up with this nonsense forever? Does anyone at British Decca or in the Rolling Stones organization even give a damn about the public they sell their records to?

Last year, while I was in New York, a friend took me to see someone who played me tapes of the stereo versions of "Heart Of Stone," "The Last Time," "Satisfaction," "Get Off My Cloud," "19th Nervous Breakdown," and "Have You Seen Your Mother Baby, Standing In The Shadow." As you might imagine, copying the songs was out of the question, but I was allowed to listen several times and make notes about the stereo versions. Although I had suspected for years that these songs were record­ed in stereo, (indeed, "Heart Of Stone" showed up in stereo a couple of years ago), I was shocked to hear the evidence. Not on­ly were these songs recorded in stereo, they sounded fantastic that way! What follows is a condensed version of my notes.

"Heart Of Stone." The mix here sounds very close to the stereo mix on the second pressing of the U.K. Big Hits LP (Decca TXS-101). The only difference I noticed with the tape version is that it fades about five to ten seconds later than the record. (Which record? Good question.) The U.S. 45 version, and the version on The Rolling Stones Now LP, fade out just as Jagger is singing, "You better drive on home ...... with the "home" bare­ly audible. The version on Hot Rocks fades abruptly just after "you better ... " The stereo version on the U.K. Big Hits album fades slightly later than the U.S. 45, with the word "home" clear­ly audible. The tape version goes on several seconds longer than any of these, and Jagger can be heard singing " ... mmmm, no no no no... ' Actually, except for the ending, "Heart Of Stone" was the least interesting song on the tape, since it is already out in stereo.


"The Last Time." This stereo mix is essentially voice-­instrument separation, except for the bridge. Guitar, bass, and drums start off on one track, with the voices coming in on the op­posite track. The tracks are not totally separated, as there is a slight bleedthrough both ways. In the instrumental bridge the high lead guitar comes in isolated on the channel with the voices, providing a fine stereo effect of two guitars on opposite channels. The most surprising part of listening to this one, though, is provided by turning off the music channel and just listening to the voices. There's some mighty pleasing harmony there buried by everything else in the mono mix.

"Satisfaction." Wow! The stereo version of this one is a good example of why I like stereo: all kinds of things are going on in this song that are lost in mono. Ever notice a piano in the song? The stereo setup has the basic rhythm track, with bass, tam­bourine, drums, and rhythm guitar (fuzz electric) on one chan­nel, Mick and the group in the middle, and an acoustic guitar and piano on the other side. The acoustic guitar and piano are probably a "fill" track designed to be mixed in at different volumes throughout the song. As it turned out, the basic rhythm track is mixed very loudly into the mono mix, with the "fill" track mixed so low as to be almost subliminal. But after hearing the acoustic guitar and piano, and knowing what to listen for, the track can definitely be heard in the final mono mix, piano and all. The acoustic guitar is playing rhythm chords throughout the verses and crashing stop-time chords in the choruses for an in­credible overall effect. The piano is imitating the lead guitar on the famous riff throughout the song, and is not loud even in the stereo version.

Again, the stereo version on tape goes on for several seconds longer than the versions on record. On the record, Mick sings, "I can't get no, I can't get no ... ," and fades out in the middle of the second time. On the tape, Jagger completes the second time and goes down an octave for one last "I can't get no ... "

"Get Off My Cloud." Three things stand out in this one: the lead vocal, the lead guitar, and the bass during the chorus. The format is Jagger in the middle, with the rhythm track (bass, drums, rhythm guitar) on one side and the lead guitar, group, and handclaps on the other. Because the lead vocal is separated, it's much easier to hear what the words are (even heard clearly, though, it's not that easy to understand what's being sung). Dur­ing the verses, the lead guitar playing the high riff over and over really stands out, since it is no longer obscured by the rhythm track. But during the chorus, where they sing, "hey, hey, you, you ...." a second bass (in the middle) blasts in, at least twice as loud as the bass on the rhythm track, giving the chorus some really heavy bottom end. This is the first obvious instrumental overdub in this set of songs, but the group got into it more in the next two songs

"19th Nervous Breakdown." There is little chance of figuring out what's really happening in this song unless one hears it in stereo. The mono version has always sounded kind of sloshy to me, with seemingly countless unidentifiable things going on. The stereo version is quite an experience. Mick is in the middle again here, with the rhythm track (bass, drums, rhythm guitar) on one side, and the lead guitar(s) and group on the other. The bass on one side and the high lead guitar on the other (complete with tremolo and reverb) pair off throughout most of the verses playing the basic alternating-note riff that runs through the song. In some of the bridge passages ("Ain't nothin' I do don't seem to work ... ") this high lead guitar smashes out some chops quick­ly cut off with the heel of the hand for a nice sound in stereo not immediately obvious in the mono version. But the real work of art in this recording is the second (overdubbed) lead guitar, which not only has tremolo and reverb, but a fuzz tone for that blaring sound during the choruses ("you better stop, and look around ... [blast] ... "). During the verses, this second lead pro­vides some low reinforcement to the basic riff played by the bass and first lead, and is used to make the instruments get louder at various points in the song. And lastly, it is this second lead guitar that does the bassy gliss (a la "Pipeline") over and over near the end of the song. (Sorry, but the slide stays on one channel rather than moving across. Let's not get piggy, huh?)

Explaining the stereo version of this song just doesn't do it justice; it must be heard to be believed. It's really depressing to hear this, though, and know that it may never be on record.

"Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing In The Shadow?" Whew! This one is hard to follow even in stereo. Everything seems to have reverb on it. The format is Jagger and the fuzz bass in the middle, along with the finger snaps. On one side are the drums, a fuzz guitar, and one set of horns; the op­posite channel has another set of horns, the group, an electric and an acoustic guitar, and a piano. Just pure power-turn it up loud and blow your eardrums out, it's addictive. As a bonus, you can actually hear what Mick is singing, since his voice is not quite as lost in the echo as in the mono mix.

Will whoever has the rights to this stuff please get with it and release the stereo versions? We've been waiting almost 20 years; give us a break!
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby JWB » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:40 pm

Unsurpassed Masters Vol. 7 has arrived...

http://zombtracker.the-zomb.com/details.php?id=17566

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Re: Rolling Stones 'Time Trip Vol.5'

Postby lukpac » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:45 pm

FWIW, I was just listening to JWB's remaster of Have You Seen Your Mother, and I noticed that the azimuth is off a little. Move the channels by a few samples and you get something that OOPSs better and sounds better in mono...
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Re: Rolling Stones 'Time Trip Vol.5'

Postby JWB » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:28 pm

I suck at adjusting azimuth. Wanna help?

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Re: Rolling Stones 'Time Trip Vol.5'

Postby lukpac » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:08 pm

JWB wrote:I suck at adjusting azimuth. Wanna help?


Sure.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD