Rolling Stones 'Time Trip Vol.5'

For discussion of those 'grey area' CDs
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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:01 am

Aftermath wrote:There's an alternate mix with clearer drums and a slightly different lead vocal on the Black Box comp.


Tom Stroud wrote:The earlier mix is the one with the different intro right?

No distorted guitar and Mick singing "you live in the shadow....." at the start?


Yeah, that's the one. I think the first time I heard it I assumed it was a totally different recording, but there's actually quite a bit in common with the final version, IIRC.

Incidentally - Oldham's book has a piece on them recording Mother. Apparently the overdub on the intro of the master is (as well as the fuzz guitar) Mick and Keith making a vocal "bowwwwoooooowwww" sound. It sounds weird but listen again to the track and it is plausible. Imagine someone doing an impersonation of a didgeridoo sound.

The (fairly) interesting thing about this weird vocal trick is that they also do it on the version on the "Got Live...." album. IIRC the the instrumental track for HYSYM on the live album is very clean sounding - much less live than say Time Is On My Side - then it leads into Satisfaction with that piano overdub so I'm wondering if the "live" versions of Mother / Satisfaction were re-recorded from scratch?

Obviously some stuff on the album (I'm Alright) started out as a live recording with overdubs but the later stuff has suspiciously good fidelity at times.


Trying to understand GLIYWI just makes my brain hurt. I think for a long time I had assumed the basic tracks were live, and most/all of the vocals were re-done, but I'm not even sure that's totally clear.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:28 am

I was listening to various different versions and mixes of "Mother" yesterday, including the early version. Thoughts:

- the fidelity on the early/alt version is stunning compared to the final version
- the stereo mix on TT5 blows away the other copies I have
- as much as an improvement as it is, the stereo mix on TT5 makes The Last Time sound like a sonic gem

Talk about stuff that is in desperate need of a remix...
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

Aftermath
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Postby Aftermath » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:42 pm

Perhaps the best thing about this release is it gives some hope that there will be more such releases in the future. I think it’s been some time since pre-70s unreleased studio material has come out, especially from decent tape sources.

This stereo version of Mother Baby on TT5 is a big leap in terms of clarity. The earlier versions sound underwater and gutless by comparison, almost like they’re from a bad cassette source. The horns that come in near the end never sounded anywhere near this clear--agreed though, about the amount of improvement still possible.

Here’s a best guess at what’s on the stereo mix

Left
Tambourine
Drums (toms)
Lead guitar

Middle
Vocals
Finger snaps
Backing vocals
Fuzz(?) bass
Horns (briefly) during coda.

Right
Piano
Horns
Acoustic guitar

Here are some differences between the alt. vocal mix and other versions. This isn’t on TT5, but is on the Black Box and JWB’s great Unsurpassed Masters set.

Different lead vocal take
No finger snaps
Fuzz bass largely absent
Loud drums
Loud lead guitar.

I vote for more drums on any remix--talk about an opportunity missed when this was originally released.
Last edited by Aftermath on Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lukpac
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Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:24 pm

Aftermath wrote:I vote for more drums on any remix--talk about an opportunity missed when this was originally released.


Agreed. Supposedly Keith said something at the time about the rhythm track getting "lost" in the end. That certainly seems to be the case.

I'm still hoping for at least another bump in quality, though.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:27 pm

http://www.timeisonourside.com/SOHaveYouSeen.html

We tried trombones, saxes and nearly all permutations of brass before arriving at the trumpets. Everything but the trumpets dragged.
- Keith Richards, 1966


I liked the track, I hated the mix. Mainly because there was a fantastic mix of the thing, which was just right. But because they were in a rush and they needed to edit it down for the Ed Sullivan Show - 'cause we were booked to play our latest single which was gonna be Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow? - the mix was rushed and the essential qualities of it, for me, disappeared. Because... just because of the lack of time, you know...
- Keith Richards, c. 1982


It needed another couple weeks. The rhythm section is almost lost completely.
- Keith Richards, 1971


Keith always felt that the incorrectly mixed version was released as the single. The rhythm section is buried in the mix and it failed to create as much excitement as we all felt it should have done. Although we took longer to record and mix this single than any of our previous releases, Keith always felt it needed more - this was the beginning of the future!
- Bill Wyman, Rolling With The Stones, 2002
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

Aftermath
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Postby Aftermath » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:03 pm

I wonder what Keith is referring to when he says "edit down" (mix down?) and whether the "fantastic mix" he's referring to is this mix with the alternate vocal and loud drums or something we haven't heard (yet?). What's interesting is that even the version without the lead vocal on TT 5 and the Black Box (and presumably used on the Ed Sullivan show) has a significantly fuller drum sound than the single release.

Questions w/o answers...

EDIT: Of course the alt. vocal version can't be the one Keith is talking about--no bass :roll:

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Postby lukpac » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:02 am

Aftermath wrote:
I can't find it on Youtube but I'm pretty sure that when they played Satisfaction on Shindig they actually mimed to the abandoned Chess version rather than the RCA master.


Their first appearance did show them playing to a version with harmonica I think you're referring to--I've never been sure whether it was the abandoned Chess master or not, but I suppose it could have been. They did a second appearance a few months later with the standard (albeit censored) version--part of that is on the 25x5 video.


Here's the (apparently) second Shindig version, Mick singing to the RCA backing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6EDQI7Y ... ed&search=
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Aftermath » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:07 pm

Lots of piano (and acoustic) coming through on that.

A number of these mono backing tracks have turned up. Often not very good quality though.

Incidentally - Oldham's book has a piece on them recording Mother. Apparently the overdub on the intro of the master is (as well as the fuzz guitar) Mick and Keith making a vocal "bowwwwoooooowwww" sound. It sounds weird but listen again to the track and it is plausible. Imagine someone doing an impersonation of a didgeridoo sound.


That intro always impressed the hell out of me.

Compared the regent demos on TT5 to other versions, and the TT5 versions seemed to beat out those as well. A number of tracks on this comp. are a bit heavy on the bass though.

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Postby lukpac » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:47 am

Aftermath wrote:Compared the regent demos on TT5 to other versions, and the TT5 versions seemed to beat out those as well. A number of tracks on this comp. are a bit heavy on the bass though.


Yes. "Mother" sounds really bad depending on your speakers. I think I took out 6 dB with a shelf around 150 Hz, and another 6 dB or so around 3 kHz. Not great, but a lot better.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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JWB
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Postby JWB » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:09 am

Is there a lossless copy of this available yet?

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Postby lukpac » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:21 am

JWB wrote:Is there a lossless copy of this available yet?


Don't know about online, but somebody did send me a CD-R.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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JWB
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Postby JWB » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:43 am

I can remaster the whole disc if you want me to.

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Postby lukpac » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:47 am

If you want to have at it...

I'll have to rip it.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby JWB » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:27 am

I'm downloading "Time Trip 5" off a Stones tracker as we speak.

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Postby Xenu » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:12 am

There's a Stones tracker?
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