Was just wondering what the general consensus on these was.
Because I've never been very impressed by them. At all. Prix just recently posted a thread on this at stevehoffman.tv, and they're busy ridiculing him, I think, but I think he's completely right. The RCAs are dull, dull, dull...sure, you can turn them up loud, but that's not really indicative of excellent sonics (it reminds me of the way the PRT Kinks "Hit Singles" sounds in comparison with their other discs...the PRT has a very soft top end, and thus you can turn it up higher, but...).
I still prefer the Au20s...the Au20 of Man Who Sold the World is *excellent*. And for all the flack that the Virgins get, I don't think they sound too awful...they sound *odd*, but are listenable.
Any thoughts?
-D
RCA Bowies
prix wrote:I agree with you 100%. I'll tell you what I'll do.....if you have any RCA Bowie cds, I'll buy them from you or exchange them for Ryko versions. Send me a PM and let me know which ones you've got.
BTW, yes, I knew you were joking...I figured I might as well use your joke thread to beget one here. Besides, I had been giving my Changes2Bowie a few spins, and thought this should be mentioned.
Firstly, I no longer have the RCA discs...they're long hocked off (for far more than they should be worth). I had Hunky Dory, Ziggy, and Man Who Sold the World.
While I DID have them, though, I wasn't impressed. I guess I do understand what it is people see in them, but I think the faults far outweigh any of the benefits. I assume you've heard the Au20s? I think the quality on those is much more preferrable...I mean, you can't turn them up as loud, but I've never really been bothered by that.
I dunno. Maybe I'm crazy. I just don't like them.
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
Xenu wrote:prix wrote:I agree with you 100%. I'll tell you what I'll do.....if you have any RCA Bowie cds, I'll buy them from you or exchange them for Ryko versions. Send me a PM and let me know which ones you've got.
BTW, yes, I knew you were joking...I figured I might as well use your joke thread to beget one here. Besides, I had been giving my Changes2Bowie a few spins, and thought this should be mentioned.
Firstly, I no longer have the RCA discs...they're long hocked off (for far more than they should be worth). I had Hunky Dory, Ziggy, and Man Who Sold the World.
While I DID have them, though, I wasn't impressed. I guess I do understand what it is people see in them, but I think the faults far outweigh any of the benefits. I assume you've heard the Au20s? I think the quality on those is much more preferrable...I mean, you can't turn them up as loud, but I've never really been bothered by that.
I dunno. Maybe I'm crazy. I just don't like them.
You're not crazy. You just don't like them. There is nothing wrong with that. That is the whole point to listening to music in the first place. Some of us tend to forget that. Consider yourself lucky that you have found versions of these cds that you are happy with, while the rest of us are out there chasing the perfect mastering job. My question to you would be this: what kind of system do you listen on? There are many discs which may have the illusion of sounding better than others due to playback on a colored or inferior stereo. What I am listening for is a natural sound that feels real. That is what I hear in the RCA discs that I don't hear in the Rykos. It is possible that your components and speakers may not be giving you the entire picture. Or you may just prefer that Rykodisc versions. As for the AU20s, I have all of them. I've thought that they sound very good in the past, but have yet to compare them directly to the RCA discs. That I will do tomorrow. My first comparison was RCAs/standard Rykodiscs. My guess is, though, that since the AU20s are brought to you by the same label, there will be the same types of problems. We'll see........TBC.
I listen on lots of systems, thanks...that's one thing I'm certainly NOT missing out on (god bless multiplicity).
The thing is, what I hear on the RCAs is what I'd expect to hear on a slightly worn tape...lots of "presence," but very little detail. I have many CDs made from nth generation production masters that have the same sort of vibe; they're perfectly pleasant to listen to (i.e. there's nothing *wrong* with them, per se, unless they have dropouts and other nastyness) but there's simply not much detail. I again point to that Kinks PRT disc, but there're several others; MCA's old "Let's Live For Today" disc (didn't sound bad, but is kinda dull next to the Repertoire), Spotlight Kid/Clear Spot (the Rhino disc sounds much better), etc.
The thing is, what I hear on the RCAs is what I'd expect to hear on a slightly worn tape...lots of "presence," but very little detail. I have many CDs made from nth generation production masters that have the same sort of vibe; they're perfectly pleasant to listen to (i.e. there's nothing *wrong* with them, per se, unless they have dropouts and other nastyness) but there's simply not much detail. I again point to that Kinks PRT disc, but there're several others; MCA's old "Let's Live For Today" disc (didn't sound bad, but is kinda dull next to the Repertoire), Spotlight Kid/Clear Spot (the Rhino disc sounds much better), etc.
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
Ron wrote:Xenu wrote:Spotlight Kid/Clear Spot (the Rhino disc sounds much better), etc.
You got me there. I've got the Reprise issue--didn't even know Rhino had issued the disc. So am I correct in assuming that you prefer the Rhino over the Reprise? Or is there another issue that I'm unaware of??
Rhino hasn't, per se, but loads from that album show up on the two-disc anthology, and IMO the tracks sound much better there. The high end on the Reprise disc is kinda wonky, which becomes more obvious when you hear the same tracks on the Rhino set (FWIW, the only tracks that AREN'T improved on that set are the SAM tracks...even the Trout Mask selections sound better there!)
Same goes with "Blue Million" on the Big Lebowski soundtrack...it sounds much better there.
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
So I just did a fairly exhaustive comparison of my newly-reacquired-for-$10 RCA "Man Who Sold" vs. my Au20 copy.
My thoughts:
a) The RCA has quite a bit of bass, while the Au20 is comparitively bass light. The bass on the RCA bleeds into the other frequencies, though, making it sound really boomy and unnatural.
b) The RCAs are mastered hilariously quietly, which is NOT A GOOD THING if they weren't volume-adjusted downwards afterward. Sure, they can be turned up louder than the other editions, but that's because they're using about 40% of the available dynamic range!
c) There're some odd phase issues on some tracks of the RCA...hmmm.
Anyway, I'm still not convinced that the RCAs win over all. Anybody else?
My thoughts:
a) The RCA has quite a bit of bass, while the Au20 is comparitively bass light. The bass on the RCA bleeds into the other frequencies, though, making it sound really boomy and unnatural.
b) The RCAs are mastered hilariously quietly, which is NOT A GOOD THING if they weren't volume-adjusted downwards afterward. Sure, they can be turned up louder than the other editions, but that's because they're using about 40% of the available dynamic range!
c) There're some odd phase issues on some tracks of the RCA...hmmm.
Anyway, I'm still not convinced that the RCAs win over all. Anybody else?
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
D,
The Bowie catalog is an awfully complicated mess, it's been mastered so many times. I have several RCA's, and the most impressive is STATION TO STATION, a silver label from Europe. Very flat and faithful to the music; that is, no Eq or NR adjustments as I hear on the Ryko(less bass, a bit more upper mids)or Virgin, EMI(more bass, even more tweaking). On the other hand, the CHANGESBOWIE Ryko comp sounds fine to me, has more tracks than the RCA CHANGESONEBOWIE, and the sound hasn't been frigged with so much you could really choose one over the other. In most cases, the 'detail' you might think is missing from the RCA's is mainly because the tapes were not specially Eq'd in any way, as so many reissues(and the Virgin Bowie's most definitely)are. Things are too often being pre-Eq'd for us in advance, which many listeners tend to prefer, but not audiophiles, as the more sensitive the equipment, the more aggravating and unlistenable this sort of thing becomes, as I know only too well. Astley's work on the ABBA catalog--forget The Who for the moment--is an utter travesty, it's so compressed and attenuated. It's harsh and ear-burning, plain and simple.
If I were going to start collecting Bowie CD's today, I'd keep an eye out for RCA pressings--imports preferred--but focus on the easier to find Ryko's not least for their bonus tracks. A few later EMI comps have 45 edits and other goodies. Beyond that, though, I wouldn't go out of my way to purchase the currently common redos.
Best,
ED
The Bowie catalog is an awfully complicated mess, it's been mastered so many times. I have several RCA's, and the most impressive is STATION TO STATION, a silver label from Europe. Very flat and faithful to the music; that is, no Eq or NR adjustments as I hear on the Ryko(less bass, a bit more upper mids)or Virgin, EMI(more bass, even more tweaking). On the other hand, the CHANGESBOWIE Ryko comp sounds fine to me, has more tracks than the RCA CHANGESONEBOWIE, and the sound hasn't been frigged with so much you could really choose one over the other. In most cases, the 'detail' you might think is missing from the RCA's is mainly because the tapes were not specially Eq'd in any way, as so many reissues(and the Virgin Bowie's most definitely)are. Things are too often being pre-Eq'd for us in advance, which many listeners tend to prefer, but not audiophiles, as the more sensitive the equipment, the more aggravating and unlistenable this sort of thing becomes, as I know only too well. Astley's work on the ABBA catalog--forget The Who for the moment--is an utter travesty, it's so compressed and attenuated. It's harsh and ear-burning, plain and simple.
If I were going to start collecting Bowie CD's today, I'd keep an eye out for RCA pressings--imports preferred--but focus on the easier to find Ryko's not least for their bonus tracks. A few later EMI comps have 45 edits and other goodies. Beyond that, though, I wouldn't go out of my way to purchase the currently common redos.
Best,
ED
When remixing vintage tapes, imagine you are back in the time those recordings were made, and mix accordingly. forget Today's Sound Sensibilities....
No no *no*.
I understand the difference between EQ and detail. To me, the RCA's lack detail because *they're made from dubdowns and the detail simply isn't there*. Sure, the Rykos have been tweaked, but the tweaking complements what's already there.
Whatever the case, though, I think it's a total shame that the current EMI campaign was in no ways definitive...heck, even the DELUXE edition campaign is in no way definitive (missing mixes, clipping intros, etc.). All that seems to separate Bowie from, say, the Small Faces is that his stuff is always full price!
I understand the difference between EQ and detail. To me, the RCA's lack detail because *they're made from dubdowns and the detail simply isn't there*. Sure, the Rykos have been tweaked, but the tweaking complements what's already there.
Whatever the case, though, I think it's a total shame that the current EMI campaign was in no ways definitive...heck, even the DELUXE edition campaign is in no way definitive (missing mixes, clipping intros, etc.). All that seems to separate Bowie from, say, the Small Faces is that his stuff is always full price!
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
Which, Ziggy? Ziggy has its channels reversed, is missing the beginning of Hang On To Yourself, and is missing the segue between the title track and Suffragette City. These mistakes alone (which, FWIW, are NOT apparent on ANY other CD) kill it.
The audio is also fairly heavily compressed, and IMO sounds slightly muddier than the stock Virgin disc (which, while sounding very odd, isn't quite "hideous").
The audio is also fairly heavily compressed, and IMO sounds slightly muddier than the stock Virgin disc (which, while sounding very odd, isn't quite "hideous").
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"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911