We need a FORMAT WAR thread (or twelve)

Just what the name says.
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Rspaight
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We need a FORMAT WAR thread (or twelve)

Postby Rspaight » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:12 pm

From what I've seen, you're not a *real* music forum unless you have at least one active thread at all times containing the same boring arguments pro and con SACD/DVD-A. Often these threads carry titles that sound interesting and informative, but in fact contain one or two posts related to the subject and five pages of bitter bloviating and babbling.

I hate to see FLO fall behind in this important yardstick of forum quality. So let me start us off:

SACD rules. If you like DVD-A, you smell funny and have small genitals.

Ryan
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:38 pm

As far as sound goes, I really don't care. I tend to believe that most "differences" are in people's heads.

From a practical standpoint, I think SACD is the way to go, due to its (possible) hybrid nature. I can buy one disc and play it at home, in the car, wherever. I don't especially like the idea of needing a dedicated player (DVD-V or DVD-A) for DVD-A. I've heard the shouts of "but DVD-A will support hybrid at some point!", but if you think about it, it's not really possible. Current DVD players have no mechanism for switching between layers. If they came across a disc with both layers, how would they know which to play?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Re: We need a FORMAT WAR thread (or twelve)

Postby Patrick M » Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:33 pm

Rspaight wrote:SACD rules. If you like DVD-A, you smell funny and have small genitals.

Did you try Metallica, Queen, or Grateful Dead?

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Postby Rspaight » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:12 pm

Not yet, but soon. I do have several DVD-As which I like a lot, but it's more fun in a FORMAT WAR thread to take an extreme, zealous, purist stance.

Have you listened to the inherently superior, PERFECT ANALOG-LIKE DSD SOUND of the SRV yet?

Ryan
RQOTW: "I'll make sure that our future is defined not by the letters ACLU, but by the letters USA." -- Mitt Romney

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Postby Patrick M » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:30 pm

I haven't played the SACDs yet, but that's because I know my redbook gold CD of CSTW is INHERENTLY SUPERIOR because it's on a GOLD CD which doesn't have PINHOLES in it. Also, I believe it was mastered by DOUG SAX and/or GAVIN LURSSEN and I know they use TUBES and therefore it's GREAT.

How was that?

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Postby Rspaight » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:59 pm

Much, much better.

We need to work in something about JITTER and/or DITHERING, though. And HIGH FREQUENCY NOISE SHAPING.

I'll get my Caps Lock key fixed soon.

Ryan
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Postby lukpac » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:08 pm

Rspaight wrote:I'll get my Caps Lock key fixed soon.


I've noticed you're not posting in all caps nearly enough.

How about your comma key?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Patrick M » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:09 am

comma, comma, comma, comma, comma, chameleon

[Edit: 5th "comma" added]
Last edited by Patrick M on Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby thomh » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:25 am

SACD SCHMAC! Do not let SH and Sony make an AUDIOPHOOL out of YOU, too!

FACT:
DVD-A 24/192 is VASTLY superior to SACD except below 1kHz or so. DO THE MATH!

FACT:
DVD-A at 24/96 over six channels is VASTLY superior to multichannel SACD. DO THE MATH!

FACT:
DSD is FATALLY FLAWED. That's why Sony introduced 'DSD Wide', which is just multi-bit PCM glued onto low-resolution DSD.

FACT:
We are not seeing a TECHNICAL war but rather a MARKETING war.

FACT:
Take a DSD recorded hybrid SACD that has been properly downsampled to 16/44. Burn a copy of the Redbook portion. Compare this to the original SACD. THEY SOUND THE SAME!

FACT:
Joe and Debbie Blow will NOT care about the "greater resolution" that the purveyors of SACD and DVD-A are peddling simply because THEY WILL NOT HEAR IT!

FACT:
The POTENTIAL penetration of DVD-A and SACD will come because of their multi-channel capabilities. BUT, the sad FACT is that Joe and Debbie Blow will find that DD 5.1 is PERFECTLY adequate for their multichannel pleasure.

FACT:
For stereo playback, REDBOOK RULES!

FACT:
I AM NOT KIDDING!

FACT:
This was FUN!
Thom

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Postby mikenycLI » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:30 am

All these formats, other than stereo, are just gimmicks to jumpstart, the slagging sales of the Music Industry.

They may make the Music sound "better", but then they are supposed to.

It's all a load of hype.

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Postby Rspaight » Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:33 am

As far as sound goes, I really don't care. I tend to believe that most "differences" are in people's heads.


Getting the optimal aural experience out of either of these high-res formats requires careful attention to the holistic whole of your "rig," with precise optimization needed to complement the unique character of each.

The "streaming" nature of DSD means that for truly exceptional SACD performance, you must ensure that the sound can "flow" from player to processor to amp to speaker in as unimpeded a way as possible. Gravity is the key. Using extremely low resistance CriscoQuest teflon-core digital and analog interconnects ($780/ft, plus regular applications of Shakti CableLube, $200/oz) helps, but you're simply not hearing the full potential of the medium unless the signal chain is oriented correctly to allow the "Direct Stream Digital" to proceed with minimal gravitational interference.

To wit, the player must reside above the external processor (if used, and highly recommended -- a custom DigiLink 8000DSD, $6700, is my favorite, which in turn requires the matching proprietary DigiLink 8000SACD transport, $6500), which in turn must reside above the pre-amp, which must be installed above the amp, which must be in a plane above the speakers. Obviously, to maintain proper imaging, especially in multichannel applications, this will require creative installation techniques.

The best solution is to utilize SoundFlow mounting brackets. These fit into the natural 90 degree angles formed by the ceiling and walls in your listening room. (If your ceiling and walls are not exactly true, hire a competent contractor to realign them. You can save money here by not having to repaint the areas behind the SoundFlow mounts!) Your components then slot into custom made SoundFlow component sleeves (cost dependent on exact dimension of your gear) which in turn latch into the SoundFlow brackets, both enforcing the ideal vertical alignment in the "y" plane, and also the "precise sound arc" in the "z" plane as described in Sony research papers.

This mounting scheme does have the downside of making manipulation of the control panels and loading of the SACD discs difficult. (Obviously, you're not using low-end gear with infrared remotes that corrupt the natural argon levels in the room required for pure sound transmission, right?) The solution is the AuditionHoist system, $20,000 installed. This consists of an ergonomically correct sling into which the listener is installed. This attaches to an elaborate (and sonically neutral) pulley rig connected to a hydraulic lift (in a separate sound-proofed room). (We recommend installing a separate power feed for the lift to avoid interference with your audio system. Contact a competent electrician for assistance.) Using a wired remote (remember, no infrared!), the listener can maneuver him or herself to any point in the room, in three dimensions. This has the double benefit of (1) allowing precise placement in the stereo or multichannel "sweet spot," and (2) allowing access to high-mounted components.

With proper mounting of equipment, good cables (freshly lubed), and your ears dangling in the precise spot in space, SACD will truly come alive. You may even find yourself physically affected by the experience. (This will pass.)

I have thoughts on DVD-A setup, if anyone's interested.

Ryan
Last edited by Rspaight on Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby lukpac » Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:15 am

Rspaight wrote:Using a wired remote (remember, no infrared!)


But won't a wired remote cause unhealthy sonic deflections and refractions, resulting in a "smear" to the overall sound? That would quickly lead to fatigue and headaches, would it not? Not to mention a phase inversal of all supersonic frequencies!
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Rspaight » Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:19 pm

Depends on the cable used for the remote.

Ryan
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Postby Xenu » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:20 pm

That was one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.
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Postby Mike Hunte » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:58 pm

Music is sinful. I'd rather write poems to my ingrown toenails and download hi-rez porn.