The Who - Philly '73

Just what the name says.
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lukpac
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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby lukpac » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:45 pm

elcelc wrote:Wow, you know how long it takes to search for Largo/Landover/Washington/Philly? Finally found it on TTD from 1zeppelin2:
"This comes directly from the pre-FM reel sent out by KBFH ....
This is a Quad matrix and can be played back through a Quad decoder to make it into 4 channels.
The opening track of this has the original announcement by KBFH's host, Bill Minkin saying this is in QUADRAPHONIC and STEREO.
In order to head off any other needless quickie remasters, I sent a copy to someone who will be working on a QUAD remaster which should be a final and definitive version."

After re-reading the comments, I'm still not clear if this has been or can be split into four separate channels.


Sounds to me like the mix is simply SQ (or QS) encoded. I.e., it's stereo, but is designed to be decoded by a quad decoder. Something anybody with a quad decoder could do.

Now, if there existed a *discrete* 4-track source, that might be interesting, but I've never seen anything to suggest such a beast exists (or has ever been made available).
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Jeff T.
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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Jeff T. » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:47 pm

elcelc wrote:Wow, you know how long it takes to search for Largo/Landover/Washington/Philly? Finally found it on TTD from 1zeppelin2:
"This comes directly from the pre-FM reel sent out by KBFH ....
This is a Quad matrix and can be played back through a Quad decoder to make it into 4 channels.
The opening track of this has the original announcement by KBFH's host, Bill Minkin saying this is in QUADRAPHONIC and STEREO.
In order to head off any other needless quickie remasters, I sent a copy to someone who will be working on a QUAD remaster which should be a final and definitive version."

After re-reading the comments, I'm still not clear if this has been or can be split into four separate channels.


It would not be good true Quad anyway. I would just like a stereo capture to digital of that reel. See if you can get that stereo reel on disc and then share please.

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Jeff T. » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:07 am

[quote=]In order to head off any other needless quickie remasters, I sent a copy to someone who will be working on a QUAD remaster which should be a final and definitive version."

After re-reading the comments, I'm still not clear if this has been or can be split into four separate channels.[/quote]

I'll tell you what the heartbreaker is here, the guy things a "quickie" remaster might not be a good idea. Then he continues to explain that a "copy" is being sent to be decoded and remastered, thus ending up with the definative version.

What this guy fails to know is that there will not be a good version of this if he does this the way he planned. The decoding must be from that original reel and not a CDR, or R2R dub, or else it will be just another hissy and dull boot copy out there.

His mastered copy is all that is needed here and will sound better than that 3rd gen remaster he thinks needs to be made.

It is sad when folks have elements that are prized and they want to remove the hiss, or copy and copy and then remaster, etc.

Anyway, we all look forword to hearing this, you never know.

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Tom Stroud » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:46 am

http://qualityboots.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... -flac.html

FLACs of what looks like a useful set. I'm not familiar enough with the various sets / mixes etc to know exactly what's what.

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby lukpac » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:49 pm

Tom Stroud wrote:http://qualityboots.blogspot.com/2008/06/who-spectrum-1973-soundboard-flac.html

FLACs of what looks like a useful set. I'm not familiar enough with the various sets / mixes etc to know exactly what's what.


I got the first file...at the very least, ICE sounds like a capture of Wolfgang's, for better or worse.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Jeff T. » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:01 am

Chris M wrote:Man, the Philly Sea and Sand is one of my favorite Who performances ever. I love how Pete spits out the "jacket's gonna be cut slim and..". Goosebumps. I'm One is just as good. Drowned and Punk are solid.

We didn't have anything from Largo/DC until a few months ago when Wolfgang's Vault started straming some and then eventually all of the show.

I think Philly is a much better performance. I've only listened to Largo twice but IIRC Pete was having some serious gear problems and Keith was having an off night. I think KGFH picked the best night. The start of Largo/DC The Real Me is better though. I guess that is what Astley was alking about when he mentioned patching in bits of LArgo into Phlly (Philly was nearly released in the late 90's).


I just listened to both Sea and Sands (Large & Philly) back to back. In Largo Pete's guitar sounds a tad better, and Roger's vocal is falling a bit behind on the beat. Philly Roger sounds better and more on.

The both are pretty fantastic. Listen to how in tune Pete's guitar is, and when the line "The girl I Love, Is a Perfect Dresser". See Pete is playing an arpeggio style on that chord making it sound like a fucking music box. Same type of picking on I've Had Enough, it's almost like Bluegrass on the studio album. But anyway, back to Sea and Sand. The arpeggio and then a power chord on top of it is pure British rock of the highest class. Like folk elements, and then the hard rock power chord on top of it. Badfinger's Baby Blue is one of the finer examples of this as a hit single, but there it begins with the power chords, and then settles into what I call the arpeggio. I was producing a band once in the 80's and tried to get the guitarist/writer to try doing a lead / rhythm combo based on arpegio'd chord with the power chord resolve. He could not get, and could not even understand what I was getting at. I even wrote the chord out on a chart which he plated well, but could not toss a power chord down like I'd hoped. If you listen to the background of Dead Flowers, Keith is doing the same on acoustic in an sucessful effort to give the rhythm some sparkle. Real easy stuff if you got it in you. If you don't have it in you - well - then you can still play bars for free beers.

I found out a couple of years later that this is compositional talent that you either have or you do not have. I hear it used in "I Want You" on Abbey Road (later half of song), as well as Roger Waters "Sexual Revolution" on Pros and Cons. It seems that the great British rock masters understand this, and the average hack has no clue of it, or why you would even try it.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on again. But listen to that part in Sea and Sand on Largo at WG's, and hear how Pete is doing it and how dead on in tune the guitar is. Such a nice tone, it does give one goose bumps. And to think that this is all over and done. They don't write em like this anymore.

Pete had the same guitar tech for many years - I think it was Alan Rogan who kept Pete's guitars ringing like a bell. He may have even come back to the fold in recent years. I know some of the crew has been around PT/Who for 39 years on and off.

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Chris M » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Excellent post Jeff. I'll have to give the Largo version another listen. I think Sea and Sand might be my favorite Who song.
"I've had 40 years experience with hearing tape and vinyl. I was recording tapes before you were born" - Grant

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Jeff T. » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:54 am

Chris M wrote:Excellent post Jeff. I'll have to give the Largo version another listen. I think Sea and Sand might be my favorite Who song.


Thanks Chris, another small thing I noted to myself. You remember in the other forum where I mentioned getting to meet Townshend right! Well I did tell him that one of my favorite Who moments was in Sea and Sand. I quoted the line which Daltry sings "The girl I love.... is a perfect dresser, wears every fashion, gets it to the tee, I am the face...." and that the guitar is stunning as is the vocal. He nodded to show some thanks, but not acknowledging much about that piece. And since I had all this other stuff to talk about I moved on.

Well, the song was added to the set lists in more recent years after the Quad tour in the 90s where they played the entire Quad album. And in the recordings of this song as performed in the 90s it is Pete that now sings that great line of the song. I thought that was interesting and I wondered if I had some influence on him deciding to reclaim the line as his own.

Chris, have you noticed in any recordings you've heard - Pete stepping up to the mic for that complete line, rather than Roger singing it?

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Jeff T. » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:47 pm

How is this 2007 reel to reel transfer of the Who 73' KBFH material as seen here, as compared to other sources?:

http://www.demonoid.me/files/details/2863478/60157344/

I still need 1st gen on Sea and Sand, and those few rarer tracks.

Jeff

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby lukpac » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:14 am

Jeff T. wrote:How is this 2007 reel to reel transfer of the Who 73' KBFH material as seen here, as compared to other sources?:

http://www.demonoid.me/files/details/2863478/60157344/

I still need 1st gen on Sea and Sand, and those few rarer tracks.

Jeff


Dunno, first I've seen it. Grabbing...
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby lukpac » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:03 pm

Comparing that pre-FM source to what's on Wolfgang's Vault now. It seems to either be a totally different mix, or perhaps a matrixed quad. For instance, while the drums and guitar seem to come from roughly the same places in the stereo spread on both versions, Pete's vocal comes from the left on the pre-FM source and right on the WV version.

The WV version sounds a lot more solid to me, even at 96kbps.

One wonders why they announced it as being from Largo.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Jeff T. » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:16 pm

I thought that the Washington, DC location mention was in error. I recall that being said on original broadcasts, the one I taped in 1975.

And yes, original broadcasts were SQ encoded Quad, as were all the CDs of the broadcasts until the remix post 1987. Obviously there was a remix for Best of the Biscuit CD (WGFA), and for the potential release of the entire concert.

I think that the best way to go about comparing the quality of this reel transfer is to start with the Tales boots vinyl and then the later CD Tales that features the Who interview segments. Then the 1987 CD sent to radio which you likely have.

The WGV material is going to be a different animal, as is the mentioned Best of the KBFH CD. But you knew that already.

The original mix was always a bit cloudy. But I wanted to good reel to reel sourced copy of the original mix pre-FM biscuit. That is all I wanted out of this. I was not looking for a mix that tops the ones used by WGV, and features other performances. That is the real kicker about the WGV stuff, they actually got unheard, alternate nights performances.

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby lukpac » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:33 pm

Jeff T. wrote:The WGV material is going to be a different animal


Why? I wouldn't expect it to be. I mean...it *is* different, but it is unclear why it would be.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby Jeff T. » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:10 pm

lukpac wrote:
Jeff T. wrote:The WGV material is going to be a different animal


Why? I wouldn't expect it to be. I mean...it *is* different, but it is unclear why it would be.


Obviously a different mix from the multis. But the biggest difference if the quality of the mix. The Original KB (earlier) mix is just horrid. I almost regret posting the link to yet another transfer of it. Another reason I'd say the WGV material is a different animal is the different show offered.

So two shows offered, all newer mixes = different animal (to me).

What I cannot figure out is why the 73 or 74 mixes are so bad. KBFH in general, and historically, do a good job mixing their shows. Yet the original mixes of the Who are thin and sound compressed into nothing.

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Re: The Who - Philly '73

Postby lukpac » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:07 pm

Jeff T. wrote:Obviously a different mix from the multis. But the biggest difference if the quality of the mix. The Original KB (earlier) mix is just horrid. I almost regret posting the link to yet another transfer of it. Another reason I'd say the WGV material is a different animal is the different show offered.

So two shows offered, all newer mixes = different animal (to me).

What I cannot figure out is why the 73 or 74 mixes are so bad. KBFH in general, and historically, do a good job mixing their shows. Yet the original mixes of the Who are thin and sound compressed into nothing.


I think WV has pulled the blog information they had up originally, but my understanding was the mixes they have up were done in preparation of creating an edited broadcast master. That is, I thought the implication was those were the master mixes, which were subsequently complied/edited/etc. Note Dr. Jimmy from Philly is still edited, while it *isn't* from Largo. I simply wonder if what they have up are straight downmixes of 4-channel mixes, while what was broadcast was a matrixed encoding of the same mixes.

Agreed they generally sound terrible regardless.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD