My Generation DE remixes/multitracks

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lukpac
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My Generation DE remixes/multitracks

Postby lukpac » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:43 pm

For anyone interested, I made a few observations about the My Generation DE recently that would seem to dispel some of the notions about the how the album was recorded. I don't have any contemporaneous articles in front of me at the moment, but I believe it was stated that the reason things like the lead guitar in My Generation were missing was because they were added live during the mono mix. That didn't seem likely to me, and now I've got some evidence to suggest the overdubs were done to additional 3-track tapes.

I noticed this regarding Daddy Rolling Stone in Brian Cady's notes:

Daddy Rolling Stone 2'49
(Otis Blackwell) MCA Music Publishing, A Division of MCA, Inc., ASCAP
Recorded April 12-14, 1965 at IBC Studios, London.
John: "This was one of our favorite stage songs. We played this on and off right up to the end. It grew into something far more powerful than this version."
A cover of the song originally released by Otis Blackwell in 1953. Blackwell left recording in 1955 to become a songwriter and wrote a few tunes you may have heard of like "Don't Be Cruel," "All Shook Up," "Return To Sender" and "Great Balls Of Fire." However, the version from which The Who got their arrangement was the 1963 cover version by Derek Martin. The Who's version appeared on the B-side of the European release of "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere" and was not released in the U.S. (in a stereo remix) until the Two's Missing LP in 1987. Often performed live in The Who's first few years and a live version recorded for the U.S. show Shindig is available on bootleg videotapes. This version features different backing vocals from the original version. A stereo studio version of the original version is available on The Who's box set 30 Years Of Maximum R&B.


I did a sync-up with the Two's Missing mix, and found that not only are the backing vocals different, the DE mix is missing the tambourine present on the Two's Missing mix. Here are the two for comparison:

Daddy Rolling Stone (Deluxe Edition/Two's Missing)

The DE is left, Two's Missing right.

It seemed highly unlikely that the differences in the Two's Missing mix would have been added live during the *stereo* mix, but not impossible. Plus, I wasn't sure what the original single matched, if anything.

Well, thanks to Brian, I got my hands on a copy of 45 mix, and the backing vocals and tambourine match those on the Two's Missing mix. Not only that, but the balances are a bit different and there's slightly more echo on the mono mix, indicating the mono couldn't have just been a fold-down of the stereo.

Daddy Rolling Stone (mono 45/Two's Missing)

The 45 mix is left, Two's Missing right.

That basically confirms that the overdubs were added to another 3-track (at least). Yet Fang only lists 3 versions on Talmy's tapes:

24. "Daddy Rolling Stone" [???] No backing vocals. Different vocal and guitar parts.
25. "Daddy Rolling Stone" [take 2] No backing vocals. Longer ending than released version.
26. "Daddy Rolling Stone" [take 2, mix final] This version has backing vocals and longer ending than released version(s).


"take 2, mix final" must be what's on the Deluxe Edition, yet neither of the other two versions have backing vocals, meaning there had/has to be another tape. It seems likely the master take was 4 generations down:

1) backing
2) lead vocal and guitar added
3) backing vocals added (on vocal track)
4) tambourine added (on backing track)

No mono mix exists for comparison, but essentially the same thing is true for Leaving Here:

Leaving Here (Deluxe Edition/Who's Missing)

Deluxe Edition left, Who's Missing right. Again, it's unlikely the vocals would have been added live during a *stereo* mix. Fang only lists one version:

41. "Leaving Here" [3] Same as "Who's Missing" version.


Same backing and guitar, but not the same vocals...
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Chris M » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:43 pm

Fascinating. Fang is going to be pissed when he sees that he doesn't have all of the MG session tapes.
"I've had 40 years experience with hearing tape and vinyl. I was recording tapes before you were born" - Grant

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Postby lukpac » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:38 pm

Chris M wrote:Fascinating. Fang is going to be pissed when he sees that he doesn't have all of the MG session tapes.


It isn't clear what happened to these, as supposedly 1) Talmy made copies of everything for Fang and 2) Talmy handed over all of this to MCA. I don't know if Talmy has them somewhere else and doesn't realize it, or if they were thrown out at some point or what.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby JWB » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:30 am

The fact that stereo mixes exist at all for those early tracks makes me curious, since the intended goal was supposed to be mono, and Talmy soon parted ways with The Who, along with the tapes. Perhaps they *were* overdubbing to the stereo mix? Where did MCA get those tapes for the "missing" series? Maybe Hoffman cajoled them out of Talmy and never sent them back a'la the Buddy Holly tapes? :mrgreen:

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Postby lukpac » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:59 am

JWB wrote:The fact that stereo mixes exist at all for those early tracks makes me curious, since the intended goal was supposed to be mono, and Talmy soon parted ways with The Who, along with the tapes. Perhaps they *were* overdubbing to the stereo mix? Where did MCA get those tapes for the "missing" series? Maybe Hoffman cajoled them out of Talmy and never sent them back a'la the Buddy Holly tapes? :mrgreen:


Per above, the mono and stereo mixes of Daddy Rolling Stone have the same overdubs, thus those overdubs couldn't have been made to the stereo mix.

Apparently the 6 tracks on Who's/Two's Missing were together on a reel at MCA which had come from IBC back in the day. It seems likely those were all intended for the original inception of their first LP. It begs the question: where are the stereo mixes for the rest of the (scrapped) LP?

I believe Talmy once said he had intended to do stereo mixes before relations with The Who broke off, but I have no idea if that was actually the case or not.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Xenu » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:03 pm

Chris M wrote:Fascinating. Fang is going to be pissed when he sees that he doesn't have all of the MG session tapes.


I really wish his lordship would just leak this stuff already.
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Postby Ed Bishop » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:21 pm

Fascinating....and, like the DE itself, a total mess, IMO. To get into how much I think it sux would be too depressing....

Guys,

What did you think of the DE mix? And would it be possible to make one closer to a '60s sound' or anywhere near the original mono Lp(and singles)?

ED 8)
When remixing vintage tapes, imagine you are back in the time those recordings were made, and mix accordingly. forget Today's Sound Sensibilities....

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Postby lukpac » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:03 am

Ed Bishop wrote:What did you think of the DE mix? And would it be possible to make one closer to a '60s sound' or anywhere near the original mono Lp(and singles)?


Obviously there are two main issues - the tapes that in many cases are missing overdubs, and the mixes from said tapes. Unfortunately, nobody seems to know where the rest of the tapes are, if they still exist. So that aspect is what it is.

The mixes range from "not what I would do" (rhythm and vocal center, guitar to the side) to "terrible" (everything in kind of a wash that sounds like fake stereo). They certainly *could* have mixed things left-center-right with a touch of reverb on the vocals, like those 6 that made it out in stereo, but apparently that wasn't the sound they wanted.

That isn't my favorite Who album anyway, but the DE isn't much more than a curiosity for me. If I listen to the album it is to the mono mix.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby JWB » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:37 am

I'm with Luke. I haven't played the Deluxe Edition since the day it came out, the mixing disgusted me so much. The Classic Records LP is where it's at.

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Postby LesPaul666 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:41 pm

They most likely lost some of the 3-track final sub-mixes of some of the songs, and they just don't want to admit it.

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Postby lukpac » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:58 pm

LesPaul666 wrote:They most likely lost some of the 3-track final sub-mixes of some of the songs, and they just don't want to admit it.


From my limited dealings with him, it seems like Talmy *just doesn't know*. The missing final multis seem to be just the tip of the iceberg - in theory there should probably be several dozen takes of My Generation spanning several reels, yet all that seem to exist are a couple versions of the final take.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD