Stones yet again

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Xenu
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Stones yet again

Postby Xenu » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:52 pm

Because, of course, Luke and I can't comment directly where this was originally posted...

grooves wrote in http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showt ... genumber=4:

I remember reading all of the sinister posts here about how the stuff on the promo only compilation sounded different than what finally came out and ridiculous speculation about why that was so.It was so, because better sources were found after that compilation was produced. go back and look at some of the stupid wanking on this site about why.....


Discuss.
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Postby lukpac » Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:04 pm

So noise reduction = better sources?

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Postby mikenycLI » Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:00 am

lukpac wrote:So noise reduction = better sources?



I guess if you say it enough times, like a mantra, you believe it, right ?

And it makes you feel good about ALL of the purchases...actually an empty, sinking feeling.

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Postby Sound » Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:27 am

Bob Ludwig is everything he's cracked up to be.
He's the man, let me assure you.
Ed on the other hand...
He was just gushing to be in the same thread with someone he's heard of.
It could have been a decent thread if someone hadn't pulled the "I know who such and such is".
You can only imagine.

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Postby Ed Bishop » Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:48 pm

Sound wrote:Bob Ludwig is everything he's cracked up to be.
He's the man, let me assure you.


Tell that to Luke and D. Their FAQ wasn't a complete knock on the series, nor a ringing 100% endorsement, as Mike Fremer gave them on his site, and elsewhere. But one thing for ol' Grooves: he does liven the place up during one of his rare appearances, like certains guys around here used to.... :wink:


Ed on the other hand...
He was just gushing to be in the same thread with someone he's heard of.
It could have been a decent thread if someone hadn't pulled the "I know who such and such is".
You can only imagine.


Anytime you wish to clarify that statement, by all means...


ED 8)
When remixing vintage tapes, imagine you are back in the time those recordings were made, and mix accordingly. forget Today's Sound Sensibilities....

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Postby Xenu » Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:11 pm

Tell that to Luke and D. Their FAQ wasn't a complete knock on the series, nor a ringing 100% endorsement, as Mike Fremer gave them on his site, and elsewhere. But one thing for ol' Grooves: he does liven the place up during one of his rare appearances, like certains guys around here used to.... :wink:


Exactly. Heck, we barely knocked the guys like they (probably) deserve...gave 'em a lot of leeway, and ended up recommending their stuff over the Londons more often than not. But jeez...After-math isn't very good (at all. Really. It isn't just folded in...it's like an entire frequency band is missing. The old ABKCO Under My Thumb never sounded that strange). And the promo *does* have better versions of some tracks.

I don't know Bob Ludwig, but he has a great reputation, and I can only surmise that some things were done without his knowledge. I'd love to be able to talk to him directly--instead of, say, through ICE--and ask him specific questions about the series, in some environment where he'd be free of the necessity of PRing (i.e. IN PROGRESS FOR FIFTEEN YEARS BEST SOURCES BLAH BLAH BLAH yes I'm sure they weren't sped out before the tour). What happened to Metamorphosis? Those clicks are *there*. What happened to Miss Amanda Jones? Why put the one really-obviously-NRed track unprocessed on a promo (didn't we all think Miss Amanda Jones was a weird choice at the time)?

Bah.
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Postby Ed Bishop » Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:48 pm

Hi, D. Hope I don't sound 'gushing' but just saying hi after not being around much for awhile. :roll:

I will assume Sound was referring to me. Typical of the know-nothings that you find on every board, this one--whose last post was in early April and hasn't been seen since--makes assumptions about me and my relationship with Mike Fremer.

For the record, we don't have that *much* of one, but we do know each other and have a history. Indeed, he was the guy who sold me my beloved UK Quad copy of IMAGINE over two decades ago. He had been writing for someone(can't remember where now)and placed an ad in a mag, having some stuff for sale. Not wanting to be beat, I sent an M.O. for the album right away. Got the album, and a little later a funny and nice letter from Mike asking for postage. He had meant to say 'call and reserve' but that didn't make the add(neither did the postage; should have thought of that myself), but trusted someone enough to send it along anyway. He got his postage, and we corresponded back and forth for a little bit before that kind of drifted away...

Imagine my surprise when Mike started his own site, and had it linked to SH Forums. Someone started a thread on it, and I mentioned I'd known the guy a little and bought some stuff from him way back when. I got a PM explaining that Mike was none other than 'grooves.' So I PM'd him, got one back, told him the story about IMAGINE, and he remembered it. So much for 'having heard of' Mr. Fremer. Nope, a little more than that....next someone will be shocked that, one time or another, I've had a chance to exchange PM's with Andrew Sandoval or talked with Bill Inglot on the phone. Not of late--he doesn't get out much anymore, probably weary of all the cheap shots thrown his way--but true nonetheless, and not to brag about, just to set the record straight.

As for the Stones, Mike seemed to take a lot of what he was told at face value, i.e., the samper situation. He was also surprised to learn AFTER-MATH was narrowed relative to the London import. He didn't deny the NR, except to say it was used sparingly. Well....even if that were true, listening to the import CD tells us two things: that the separation, as presented there, is very likely the honest representation of the original master tape, and, that while there is certainly enough hiss, that's part of the original recording, too, and only the paranoid would think anyone other than a small coterie of anti-hiss freaks would care. Truth is, they should have left well enough alone, since they claimed to have access to the best available tape sources.

I also pointed out that, if this were so, strange that "Last Time" and "19th Nervous" and many Lp cuts that should have stereo tapes somewhere, are in mono once again. This was explained away by saying that Mick & Keith not only helped supply tapes, but also had a say in what versions they wanted. Fine, I'll take that at face value....but also pointed out a shame nobody in a position to ask ever questioned those choices, or explained the "Ruby Tuesday" situation. That's basically what I was interested in, beyond being pessimistic that any vinyl versions from digital sources are worth bothering with in this case, given the wealth of clean original pressings still out there, not to mention some pretty decent reissues, too.

I think one of the problems is the perception--on Fremer's part, among others--that everyone just parrots what Steve says and takes it all as gospel; well, not with AFTER-MATH; he's obviously heard the import CD, from what I can tell, but even if he hadn't, doesn't believe in arbitrarily narrowing a master tape for any reason when a better, more dynamic sound can be achieved. Steve also has an extra big advantage, as Angel, Jamie, and a few others have: they work as recording engineers; the rest of us--including Fremer--are listeners, whether pro or amateur. If these pros have problems with the way these upcoming Stones Lp's are being remastered, while Mike may be right we should wait and hear them, well, easy for him to say, it isn't his money. But I go back to my original point: plenty of nice analogs out there, and since they're not offering something genuinely worthwhile--say, mono pressings of AFTER-MATH, TSMR and BB--as I said, I think I'll pass; better ways to spend money, after all.

Oh, and I'll risk gushing one more time: I think you and Luke did a fucking great job on that FAQ. If more professional reviewers would take that kind of time to reference past versions with current, we wouldn't have so much propaganda and PR being pawned off as The Truth.

ED 8)
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Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:46 pm

Xenu wrote:Exactly. Heck, we barely knocked the guys like they (probably) deserve...gave 'em a lot of leeway, and ended up recommending their stuff over the Londons more often than not.


I'd point out that most/all of the SACDs have an EQ fingerprint - a bit of missing "crispness", a bit of added midrange "glare". Compare the stereo Chess tracks sometime for a good example.

I don't know Bob Ludwig, but he has a great reputation, and I can only surmise that some things were done without his knowledge.


I doubt it. Most likely it was "we want you to do this, now do it". It's unclear *why* anyone wanted that, but...

It's also unclear how much Ludwig did and how much Steve Rosenthal et al did. There was no remixing, so what exactly was his role?

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Postby Xenu » Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:42 pm

Well, I really really really want to give Mr. Ludwig the benefit of the doubt, as from all reports his integrity is impeccable. Things like Miss Amanda Jones don't really make sense (unless, upon hearing the promo, someone said "GET THE HISS OUT OF THAT," and he did it clumsily on purpose just to spite them. Which would be funny). Nor do fun things like the edit in Ya Yas (exactly how *did* that happen?).

What other reissue campaigns have had *this* much PR riding on them? IIRC, it was OK to critique the Who discs right off the bat.
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Postby mikenycLI » Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:13 am

Xenu wrote:What other reissue campaigns have had *this* much PR riding on them? IIRC, it was OK to critique the Who discs right off the bat.



Imagine what's going to happen, when we listen to ALL of the Dylan hybrid remasters, when they, eventually, come out ?

The same thing.

In The End, all of this remastering is NO GOOD, and not as credible as those Dr.Spock Beatle things.

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Postby mikenycLI » Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:33 am

Here's another one....

Are Your New SACD's 'REALLY' DSD, or dubs from PCM??
SH and Mike Fremer were discussing the sound of the Bob Ludwig mastered Stones SACD's. That thread closed too early for me to weigh in with my three cents.

Steve said:


"One comment about the "narrowing" of the channels on AFTERMATH. In order to do that, one would have to play the master tape back through a recording console with pan pots to narrow the stereo image. If one has the master tape of AFTERMATH, it seems a shame to run it through an ordinary solid state recording console and THEN run it through a mastering console as well. Too many op amps in the signal chain. And for what? Most of the stereo on the other SACD's is wide and "unfolded". I'm at a loss to understand why the best sounding of all the early Stones albums had to be futzed with in this manner.

A bad call on someone's part.

Also, in order to add NOISE REDUCTION to "sections" of anything, one must be in PCM mode. There is no DSD noise reduction system as of yet (thank God). So, they must have done the noise reduction in regular digital and then upsampled to DSD. Why go through all of that? It seems a damn shame! A little tape hiss never killed anybody."


And then I said:

"Steve, I am convinced that every single one of Bob Ludwig's SACD's are prepped in a hi-bitrate pcm and then transferred to DSD. Even his Sam Cooke remasters have the same 'hard' quality. I was so unimpressed with the 1st Police album on SACD (which he also did) that I did not buy another one. And I _like_ BL's redbook cd's from '85 - '95."

-------------------------------------------------------


So, not to start a BL flaming session, does anybody else feel these 3 artists' (Cooke, Police, Rolling Stones) SACD's sound harder than say, Beck or the Zombies on SACD?


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Postby Xenu » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:18 am

I wouldn't necessarily put it past them. It does make things a lot easier.

Ludwig said this wasn't the case at first, but a few interviews he gave later implied that everything was done to PCM first...so the chain looked something like PCM--->DSD---->PCM (for corrections to some tracks)--->DSD---->PCM (SBM).

Ugh.
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Postby mikenycLI » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:19 am

If all of these remasters are, at the least, imperfect, why are we supporting them, by purchasing them OVER AND OVER AGAIN ????

Look at the Jefferson Airplane CD debacle. How many reissues are we at now....at number 3, aren't we ?

Unless the music companies come up with a genuine incentive for the consumer...at the least, a "turn in your old set of reissues, and get something OFF the new set"....to buy again, what use is it ? We are still in the conventional CD reissue mode here, on this catalog.

It's getting to be a little ridiculous !

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Postby Xenu » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:44 am

I can't believe the new JA set. So wait, they're giving us *less* on Surrealistic? Whatever. Should I hoard?
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Postby lukpac » Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:50 am

mikenycLI wrote:If all of these remasters are, at the least, imperfect, why are we supporting them, by purchasing them OVER AND OVER AGAIN ????


Unfortunately, it's not that simple, Mikey. Like it or not, *some* aspects of the SACDs are better than previous issues. Like Beggars. And those 5x5 tracks in stereo. And some of the sources for stuff like December's Children.

Sure, we could "make a stand" and not buy them, but honestly, the majority of people aren't going to give a fuck, so in the end it just hurts the fan more than the record company.