Forums dot lukpac.org

I've just updated this slightly. I hope it is of interest to some people here.
King Crimson FAQ
In response to Luke and David's challenge, I have decided to try and put together a limited King Crimson FAQ.
The albums compared are:
1. In The Court Of The Crimson King (An Observation By King Crimson)
2. In The Wake Of Poseidon
3. Lizard
4. Islands
5. Earthbound
6. Larks' Tongues In Aspic
7. Starless And Bible Black
8. Red
9. USA

1. In The Court Of The Crimson King (An Observation By King Crimson)
Island ILPS 9111 Released September 19th, 1969
Originally released with a gatefold sleeve and no printed inner sleeve. The first Island pressing may be the best version available. Later Polydor pressings and EG Definitive Edition (DE) CDs are inferior due to reduced dynamic range and overuse of NoNoise in the latter case. It certainly sounds like the DE CDs used the same inferior tapes as were used for the Polydor vinyl release. The 30th Anniversary edition has an accurate replica of the original sleeve and had the best CD sound available until 2005. Apparently, the original master tape of side 1 of the album was unearthed after the 1999 mastering, which improved the sound of the first half of the CD when it was remastered (side 1 originally had to be sourced from a copy that had been replicated from the master with either a slightly misaligned playback or record head. Treble loss was corrected with equalisation.) The 2005 Original Master Edition uses the newly discovered original master tape and sounds much better - particularly in the clearer treble and increased ambience retrieval of this version.It has also joined the other CDs in being HDCD encoded, unlike the 30th Anniversary version.

2. In The Wake Of Poseidon
Island ILPS 9127 Released May 8th, 1970
The first release had a parchment like outer surface of the gatefold cover. The lyrics were printed on the inside of the gatefold with a high degree of illegibility (silver on green/blue). There was no printed inner sleeve. The original release had lots of dynamic range that was curtailed in later Polydor pressings. The album even had modifications to the sound apart from compression - a loud fog-horn-blast-like sound in "The Devil's Triangle" was converted in later pressings to a soft crescendo. The DE CD used the same Polydor tapes and NoNoised them, so bass distortion and treble roll off were added to the sound. The 30th Anniversary returned to the original Island master tape and sounds close to the Island vinyl.The 2005 edition adds 2 extra tracks - both sides of a single issued at the time (Cat Food b/w Groon). Apart from this, the sound of the main album is the same as the 30th Anniversary Edition.

3. Lizard
Island ILPS 9141 Released December 11th, 1970
Originally released with a laminated cover and, oddly, the spine identification was printed upside down (as per Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and McCartney.) Lizard always sounded a little "lightweight" - there was more emphasis on the mid to upper frequency ranges than the bass. The DE release had the usual bass distortion and treble roll off of NoNoise. The 30th Anniversary corrects all this. A very jazzy feel pervades this album and, although its content is often disliked, it does bear repeated listening.

4. Islands
Island ILPS 9175 Released December 18th, 1971
The first Island release had a non-gatefold cover that was put together oddly. The tabs that secure the back and front covers together were glued outside the back cover instead of inside (?flipback sleeve?). The inner sleeve was a soft paper gatefold with paintings of islands on the outside and lyrics and recording photos on the inside. The inner sleeve opened, unusually, at the centre fold and the record was contained therein. This inner sleeve formed the basis of the Atlantic vinyl gatefold release. Surface noise started to appear in the Island pressings here, as up until this point, the vinyl had been encased in a plastic lined paper sleeve. Now the inner sleeve impinged directly on the record, allowing scratches to appear on the vinyl. Something serious happened to the sound of this album (in particular) when Polydor took over the EG catalogue. The album was originally of reference quality sound, but now, on Polydor, had grumbles, tape print through and clicks added to the sound. The same tapes were used for both DE attempts - the first simply NoNoised the faults out of existence and unfortunately left a phase shifted, distorted bass and rolled treble mess, as well as deleting the hidden tune-up coda. I would have to class this version as worse (by far) than what was done to Aqualung for the 25th Anniversary Edition and won my award for worst remaster I have ever heard. The second attempt rolled back the NoNoise and allowed all the tape faults through and restored the coda - at least the sound was now bearable,. The 30th Anniversary Edition shows what the original release looked like and approaches what it sounded like. I suspect that tapes MUCH closer to the Island master tapes had been found and used for this release.

5. Earthbound
Island HELP 6 Released June 17th, 1972
This live album was released on the cheap Island Help label (as was Emerson, Lake & Palmer's "Pictures At An Exhibition.") That it was cheap was not surprising, as the tapes were recorded on a Sony cassette recorder from the FOH mixing board. Remember that Nakamichi hadn't made any tape decks at that time, and the resulting sound was abysmal. Lots of overload distortion and both bass and treble roll off abounded. Who cares whether the Polydor vinyl or the latest 30th Anniversary are better or worse. The sound is so terrible that U.S. Atlantic refused to release it. There are far better recorded examples of the 1971-1972 band, all of which are so far only available at the Discipline Global Mobile website as King Crimson Collector's Club CDs. I would suggest trying "Live at Plymouth Guildhall", "Live in Detroit" or "Live at Summit Studios" for far better recorded sound.
The album cover was not a gatefold, had no lyric sheet and was a dull silver on black print. It was out of print for many years and has only just been restored to the catalogue in 2002. I suspect most people had not heard it until then.
Track sources are:
21st Century Schizoid Man and Groon - Wilmington, Delaware on 11th February, 1972
Peoria - Peoria on March 10th, 1972
The Sailor's Tale - Jacksonville, Florida 26th February, 1972
Earthbound - Orlando, Florida 27th February, 1972.



6. Larks' Tongues In Aspic
Island ILPS 9230 Released 23rd March, 1973
The first pressing was a non-gatefold release with a red border (unlike the white border of the U.S. Atlantic pressing.) There was a textured inner sleeve that had the lyrics on one side. This album had huge dynamic range (looking at the groove pitch on Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part 1 is an experience) which was severely curtailed on the Polydor vinyl and the DE CD. The 30th Anniversary copy restores the dynamics and, as a bonus, we lose the always-noisy vinyl that this was pressed on. The bass distortion in Book Of Saturday is still present however - I suspect a master tape fault.

7. Starless And Bible Black
Island ILPS 9275 Released 29th March, 1974
First pressings were a gatefold with a lyric inner sleeve (soft paper on first pressings, thicker stock on later pressings). The cover also had a fine pebbly texture externally. Most of this album was recorded live, although no mention of the fact was evident on the sleeve. The recorded sound is superb and even Polydor couldn't ruin it. The DE CD is also quite good, but the best release is the 30th Anniversary. For more of the same band, good stopping points are "The Night Watch" and "The Great Deceiver" on Discipline Global Mobile.
Sources of the tracks are:
The Great Deceiver, Lament and The Night Watch (introduction) - Air Studios.
The Night Watch (main part), Trio, Starless & Bible Black and Fracture - Amsterdam Concertgebouw November 23rd, 1973.
We'll Let You Know - Glasgow Apollo October 23rd, 1973.
The Mincer - Zurich Volkshaus, November 15th, 1973.


8. Red
Island ILPS 9308 Released October 26th, 1974
This was the last studio album released for a number of years. The original Island release has a laminated cover without a lyric sheet. It was not a gatefold.The vinyl was contained in a blue paper sleeve with plastic lining. The sound was always a little compressed compared with previous releases, and the Polydor vinyl was therefore not too much of a set back, nor was the DE CD. The 30th Anniversary, however, has a greater dynamic range, as well as slightly extended frequency response.Have a listen to Starless on this album - King Crimson at its best.

9. USA
Island ILPS 9316 Released April 25th, 1975
A muscular live album, this was originally presented in a laminated single sleeve, generic plastic lined paper inner sleeve sans lyrics. Interestingly enough, the intro applause/No Pussyfooting appeared on the run-in and run-out grooves - almost as it you had been dropped into the concert seconds before it started. Later Polydor pressings had a regular fade up of this intro.This has not been available on CD until the 30th Anniversary Edition released in 2002 - it had been out of print for approximately 20 years. In this case, the sound of the 30th Anniversary Edition is very slightly inferior to the Island vinyl. Some distortion has been added to cymbal crashes in Larks' Tongues In Aspic Part 2, which spoils things just a little. The 2 added tracks (Fracture and Starless) are excellent, but seem to have a lot more hiss evident than the rest of the album. The performances contained are excellent, although they were all recorded before Red. All except 21st Century Schizoid Man were recorded at Asbury Park, New Jersey on 28th June, 1974. The aforementioned was recorded at Providence Theatre on June 30th, 1974.

I would add that

1) no domestic CD version of Larks' Tongues except the first one allows the tapes to run to the end, so that you hear Bruford asking 'can we do one more immediately', as on the LP.

2) there are studio overdubs on the live Starless & BB tracks,

3) the sound of the 30 anniversary USA is quite different, in places, from that of the vinyl. Easily heard by playing 'Larks II' back to back, not just in the cymbals...listen to various moments where the bass is highlighted on the vinyl. It's been dialed back on the CD. The recent bit torrent version of the concert released by DGM, is closer to the vinyl mix in bass sound, though of course differs radically where David Cross' previously deleted or overdubbed elements come into play. (It also reveals that Cross' violin solo for Larks II is the one that's always been on the vinyl and CD, something that is unclear from the original credits)

4) 'Starless' remains overrated.

Thanks for posting that. King Crimson is on my shopping list for the next weeks.

Krab,
was the bit torrent version worth getting?

John Buchanan wrote:Krab,
was the bit torrent version worth getting?

Yes.

Please include this in your FAQ (you can take the credit) --

FACT: Robert Fripp compiles and releases 793 pointless King Crimson compilations each and every year. Scientific surveys indicate that insatiable music fans are not satisfied with having "21st Century Schizoid Man" on 843 different CDs in their collection.

'NOTHER FACT: Judging from the interview I conducted (and, no, I didn't want to do it) with Bill Bruford in 1995, I can say with 100% certainty that the man has a mental age of 6. OK, nice guy, like a bouncy widdle puppy dog, but, man, that guy is dumb as a post. Seriously.

ALSO A FACT: Adrian Belew is --

1. The most mediocre "frontman" ever to worm his way into a "legendary" band.

2. The most narcissistic asshole I've ever encountered.

3. Belew is the worst lyricist of all time; worse than Peter Sinfield (which is an absolutely STAGGERING achievement).

4. The ugliest man in pop music (the touched-up photos do not do him justice) -- uglier than the Phantom of the Opera, uglier than Seal.

5. A living, breathing, walking pastiche of (gulp) David Byrne and Sting (haha).

I saw Adrian Belew "in the flesh" on Bowie's 1990 tour, and I can vouch for the fact that he's an ugly, ugly man. I was bemused by the sight of several excitable douchebags clamoring to get his autograph.

Genuinely hideous music, too. "Heartbeat" has to be one of the shittiest songs I've ever heard in my life. I'm certain, though, that the drunken bisexual ghosts of Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady are deeply flattered by the monument to soulless studio-craft that is the Beat LP.

What's even worse is that I had to first endure the King Crimson "double trio" concert. One of the most horrific things I've ever had the unfortunate displeasure to have witnessed and heard in this life was the spectacle of Belew -- hamming it up like that grinning idiot guitar player who was in the Saturday Night Live band -- making a show of playing WHAMMY BAR ELEPHANT NOISES.

As if that wasn't enough, the audience of balding gawks (most sporting the requisite scraggly pony tail remnant) WENT INTO ORGASMIC FRENZY over aforementioned WHAMMY BAR ELEPHANT CIRCUS TRICK.

(Incidentally, the number of female audience members: absolutely ZERO.)

You too could be Robert Fripp and delude yourself into thinking you are an Intellectual (with a capital "I") if you surrounded yourself with such life-sucking dumbness.

Crummy Old Label Avatar wrote:What's even worse is that I had to first endure the King Crimson "double trio" concert. One of the most horrific things I've ever had the unfortunate displeasure to have witnessed and heard in this life was the spectacle of Belew -- hamming it up like that grinning idiot guitar player who was in the Saturday Night Live band -- making a show of playing WHAMMY BAR ELEPHANT NOISES.

As if that wasn't enough, the audience of balding gawks (most sporting the requisite scraggly pony tail remnant) WENT INTO ORGASMIC FRENZY over aforementioned WHAMMY BAR ELEPHANT CIRCUS TRICK.

(Incidentally, the number of female audience members: absolutely ZERO.)

COLA, I will have to agree you with here. Though the show I attended wasn't as genderly-challenged as yours (though I am sure the ladies in attendance were dragged in kicking and screaming), It was by far one of the most pretentious shows I ever attended. I knew Fripp wasn't going to freak and whip it out at any point, but by God mix it up a little bit. I felt like I was attended a recording session more than a concert. The songs seemed no different from the records and it was way too polished for a live concert for me.

I think the double trio concept is a unique idea, it just sure as hell wasn't executed that way when I saw it. Thank God I got in for free.

If 'way too polished' bothers you , don't ever go see a Prince show.

The idea of Bruford being dumb as a post is, well, amusing. Not saying he's a genius, but really. Maybe he just thought *you* were dumb, because certainly he comes off as intelligent and articulate in person, and in interviews I've read -- and I hear the same from correspondence with someone who's interviewed him several times. He doesn't suffer fools gladly. And btw, he hasn't been in Crimson for some years now. And KC has kind of sucked since then. The last good show of theirs I saw was on Broadway in NYC in the mid 90's, Bruford and Levin's last tour with the band. The improvisation section of 'THRAK' was hair-raising.

Belew is one pockmarked mofo, though. And his schtick wore out long ago.
Heartbeat is indeed a crap song. The double trio thing was only ever a concept, it was never put into real practice. Hideous music doesn't bother me at all -- I quite like lots of it -- unless it's by the Beach Boys.

krabapple wrote:If 'way too polished' bothers you , don't ever go see a Prince show.

I wouldn't say "way too polished" bothers me, and admittedly though I've never seen Prince live in person, the times that I have seen live footage of him, it doesn't bother me in the way Crimson performance did.

Maybe too polished was the wrong term here. I guess the experience is kind of hard to put into words. Throughout the show I got the impression if one bum note was played, Fripp would get up and kick someone's ass.

I guess I just come from the sloppy rock n roll school. I wasn't expecting an S&M Frankie Goes To Hollywood freakfest, but Christ loosen up a little bit. I don't think I was the only out of it there, Belew tried to be sort of funny between songs but that didn't go over well.

Then again, Crimson isn't exactly known for their sense of humor.

I wouldn't say "way too polished" bothers me, and admittedly though I've never seen Prince live in person, the times that I have seen live footage of him, it doesn't bother me in the way Crimson performance did.

Maybe too polished was the wrong term here. I guess the experience is kind of hard to put into words. Throughout the show I got the impressionif one bum note was played, Fripp would get up and kick someone's ass.

Well, that's actually much more likely to happen at a Prince show.
How familiar are you with King Crimson, anyway?

I guess I just come from the sloppy rock n roll school. I wasn't expecting an S&M Frankie Goes To Hollywood freakfest, but Christ loosen up a little bit. I don't think I was the only out of it there, Belew tried to be sort of funny between songs but that didn't go over well.

I think you''ve answered my question. Fuck sloppy rock. It's a cliche.

I only really know Belew from his Zappa and Bowie work...and I have to say that I really enjoy his Zappa work.

As I said, Bruford was a nice guy (which is more than I can say about Belew ; didn't talk to the others) -- bubbly personality. It's just that he kept telling me how much he was into "jazz," yet seemed to know little about it. Amazingly, he didn't know who John Gilmore was, seemed like he'd never even heard of Anthony Braxton, etc., etc. Then he started babbling incoherently about the great time signatures Stewart Copeland (!) played in the Police. Maybe he was tired, maybe he was drunk (we were in a hotel bar and he was knocking them back), but he just struck me as your stereotypical Brit from the rock school whose idea of "jazz" is Chris Barber and the bebop records he had as a kid.

As for aesthetics, well, he brought it up, not I. Surprise, surprise -- he didn't know anything about Adorno.

I know these guys are used to faking it through fawning Guitar Player interviews; it's easy to stand out as an "intellectual" when your competiition is the drummer from Ratt or some mixing board engineer who toured with Zappa, but if they're going to start name-dropping, you bet I'll grill them. To give Bruford credit, at least he thought it was funny when I told him that Holger Czukay said that he couldn't stand the KC rhythm section: "They sound as if they are fit to play at the Queen's 5 o'clock tea."

Haha. That didn't go down so well with Belew -- an egotist devoid of humor if ever there was one.

And at least Bruford admitted to me, in so many words, that the double trio sucked, and the material left a lot to be desired. He didn't seem very happy with the situation. (And didn't he resign shortly thereafter?)

Anyway, I dutifully wrote this all up for a weekly throaway that never printed it. Guess they wanted a fluff piece and not the Lester Bangs-like laughfest I gave them.

I should look around and see if I still have that article and post it at SC, if I can find it.

I do have to agree with Beatlesfan, though. That show was unbelievably tedious. I honestly don't understand why anyone would enjoy an experience like that, i.e. an exercise in demomnstrating that they can reproduce what is on record flawlessly. Hell, why not save their money and listen to the CD at home?

So I went the extra mile for my pissant assignment. Seeing that I had two hours to kill bewtween show and interview, I decided to ask the balding Crimsonites gathered outside just what they liked about this band. It usually went something like this:

- "Fripp is a GOD!" (No further explanation ever given, no matter how much I prodded for a elucidation.)

- "The...uh, er .... cross-picking between Fripp and Belew really is, uh, like more advanced than things like Beethoven." (Yeah, someone actually said that.)

- "Tony Levin is the greatest bass player in history." (Me: "Better than Mingus?" Baldy: "Who's that?")

- "Bill Bruford is the greatest drummer of all time." (Me: "So you think he's better than Elvin Jones or even Chris Cutler?" Baldy #2: "Who are they?")

My favorite part of the "man in the street" bit was asking all of them why they didn't bring their girlfriends/wives to the King Crimson concert. Watching one after the other shyly bow his head in order to stare blankly (and silently) at the pavement was the high point of the evening.

krabapple wrote:How familiar are you with King Crimson, anyway?

Like most confused youth, I went through a progressive phase when I should have been bowing to the altar of Cobain (don't worry, I went that route too). I had most of the albums at one point or another but never memorized them by heart or anything. Though I really like "Crimson King," and "Red," surprisingly the only Crimson that remains in my collection is "Discipline." I do admire Fripp's guitar work, but I guess that overall I found easier to expunge it from my psyche than try to get into it more.

FWIW, I was still into Crimson when I saw them live on the THRAK tour (I did actually like the record).

I think you''ve answered my question. Fuck sloppy rock. It's a cliche.

Yeah it is, but it can be fun too.

I do have to agree with Beatlesfan, though. That show was unbelievably tedious. I honestly don't understand why anyone would enjoy an experience like that, i.e. an exercise in demomnstrating that they can reproduce what is on record flawlessly. Hell, why not save their money and listen to the CD at home?

Exactly. I'd give you an Ed Bishop thumbs up if it didn't violate 75 different copyright laws.