King Crimson 1969 - 1975 FAQ

[Rob P]

I've never been to a King Crimson show, but I saw concert consisting of Fripp, Gunn and Belew on drums while I was at the Montreal Jazz Festival.

The concert was mostly boring. I was interested to see if Fripp would snarl at someone in the audience, but no one provoked him. The musicianship was blandly professional: Fripp stayed out of the lights during the performance, Belew played a solo acoustic guitar set of King Crimson favorites, and Gunn filled out the bottom. They had some kind words for the city and seemed to enjoy playing in Montreal, but it didn't exactly transfer over to their performance. Being there is a good memory, but the concert itself was moribund.

[krabapple]

As I said, Bruford was a nice guy (which is more than I can say about Belew ; didn't talk to the others) -- bubbly personality. It's just that he kept telling me how much he was into "jazz," yet seemed to know little about it. Amazingly, he didn't know who John Gilmore was, seemed like he'd never even heard of Anthony Braxton, etc., etc. Then he started babbling incoherently about the great time signatures Stewart Copeland (!) played in the Police. Maybe he was tired, maybe he was drunk (we were in a hotel bar and he was knocking them back), but he just struck me as your stereotypical Brit from the rock school whose idea of "jazz" is Chris Barber and the bebop records he had as a kid.

<shrug> Copeland *was* a fine drummer in his day, and I'm sure Bruford knows as much about time sigs as you do. From what I've read BB's jazz tastes run to Elvin Jones/postbop stuff. I never would have pegged you for a jazz snob....

As for aesthetics, well, he brought it up, not I. Surprise, surprise -- he didn't know anything about Adorno.

Oh, dear, the horror. (Who said anything about aesthetics, anyway?)

I know these guys are used to faking it through fawning Guitar Player interviews; it's easy to stand out as an "intellectual" when your competiition is the drummer from Ratt or some mixing board engineer who toured with Zappa, but if they're going to start name-dropping, you bet I'll grill them.

I didn't use the word 'intellectual'. I said intelligent and articulate.

And at least Bruford admitted to me, in so many words, that the double trio sucked, and the material left a lot to be desired. He didn't seem very happy with the situation. (And didn't he resign shortly thereafter?)

Yes, he's basically retired from rock music.

I do have to agree with Beatlesfan, though. That show was unbelievably tedious. I honestly don't understand why anyone would enjoy an experience like that, i.e. an exercise in demomnstrating that they can reproduce what is on record flawlessly. Hell, why not save their money and listen to the CD at home?

Well, there you go. At least you honestly admit your incomprehension.
I'm sure I'd have little sympathy for some of your favorite music too.
But the idea that KC live is an exact replica of KC studio -- or even tries to be -- is kind of laughable. Perhaps they've moved more into that direction -- I haven't followed them much closely since BB and Levin left -- but their long time reputation is *quite* the opposite.

So I went the extra mile for my pissant assignment. Seeing that I had two hours to kill bewtween show and interview, I decided to ask the balding Crimsonites gathered outside just what they liked about this band. It usually went something like this:

Oh, gee damned by fanboy quotes. How many bands would NOT yield this result?

[krabapple]

I think you''ve answered my question. Fuck sloppy rock. It's a cliche.

Yeah it is, but it can be fun too.

<shrug> So can prog. Guess what, since I can have fun listening to the White Stripes and Nirvana as well as King Crimson and Yes, I HAVE MORE FUN THAN YOU. NYAAAH.

Really, reverse rock snobbism is *such* a load of tedious bullshit. Let a hundred flowers bloom.

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

<shrug> Copeland *was* a fine drummer in his day, and I'm sure Bruford knows as much about time sigs as you do. From what I've read BB's jazz tastes run to Elvin Jones/postbop stuff. I never would have pegged you for a jazz snob....

Knowing jazz does not necessarily equate with being a "jazz snob". As for Copeland, so what if he wedged in complicated time signatures to MOR pop tunes? I have a drum machine that can play even more complicated tme sigs at a much faster rate than Copeland and Bruford put together. What does that prove? Nothing. What does Copeland's show-off antics prove? Nada.

Who said anything about aesthetics, anyway?

Bruford brought up the question of music theory and aesthetics. As I said, he introduced the topic (then quickly dropped the ball), not I.

Well, there you go. At least you honestly admit your incomprehension.
I'm sure I'd have little sympathy for some of your favorite music too.
But the idea that KC live is an exact replica of KC studio -- or even tries to be -- is kind of laughable. Perhaps they've moved more into that direction -- I haven't followed them much closely since BB and Levin left -- but their long time reputation is *quite* the opposite.

Incomprehension? No. I've done my research. This was not the 1969 or the 1972-74 group, nor even the Earthbound line-up -- all three of those bands took a lot of chances in concert. The 1995 show was stage-managed to the most anal detail, bar the laughable alloted 10-minute or so "improv" portion (i.e., the "groove to a pentatonic scale" recess; these guys cannot improvise. Derek Bailey or AMM they ain't -- more of a tight-assed jam band, really. Fine if you like that sort of thing.) The double trio pretty much played the Thrak album in its entirety, in perfect sequence, with absolutely no variation or risk-taking. The same could be said for the regurgitation of Crimson hits that filled out the rest of the evening. This was workaday clockwork (and yawn-inducing) professionalism ("professional" -- that buzzword so compulsively and neurotically uttered by Fripp) -- no joy, no spontaneity, no sense that anything is at stake, no sense that anyone is taking any risk whatsoever. Kind of like watching Swiss trains arrive precisely on time, all day long.

Now, anoraks would argue that said Professionalism was At A Very High Standard -- in that the cross-picking was managed to such a degree that not a solitary plectrum was ever dropped, the complex time sigs never wavered, the myriad strings of the Stick were perfectly in tune, Fripp never once fell off his potty chair -- but then only anoraks are impressed with the flabby display of empty technique and the superhuman adhesive qualities of Fripp's buttocks stuck to the Mercy Seat. And my verdict is that King Crimson, particularly the 90s King Crimson, is: pompous, flashy technique grafted onto (let's face it) mediocre MOR pop tunes, rather like the Philip Glass Ensemble playing the Phil Collins songbook. And THIS is why they attract a Guitar Player-reading audience that greets hammy antics such as WHAMMY BAR ELEPHANT NOISES as if they heralded the second coming. (Talk about your true Spinal Tap moments...)

Oh, gee damned by fanboy quotes. How many bands would NOT yield this result?

By their fruits shall ye know them.... Actually, you're right, but since Fripp despises his audience so much, I thought it necessary to get into the trenches and try and find out why that is. (But how he can tolerate Adrian Belew is a mystery.)

But I did learn a few things:

1. Fripp sits down onstage because he is a dwarf. If he stood, the top of his head would only be inches above Levin's navel.

2. Short man's syndrome also explains how and why Fripp spent a lonely adolescence locked in his room, cultivating his festering misanthropy and vowing to show them all up by becoming the fastest guitarist in all of Little Britain. (Thank god mum bought him a guitar in which to channel his feelings of resentment and inadequacy; he could've just as likely become the most notorious serial killer in the Village Green.)

3. Belew's ugliness explains how and why he spent a lonely adolescence locked in his room, cultivating his overcompensating narcissism and vowing to show up his detractors by becoming the world's foremost exponent of elephant noises as rendered on the Strat whammy bar....... (Did he really think THAT was finally going to get him the girls????)

One more thing -- I don't go for any either/or sloppy/non-sloppy dichotomy. Eiher it's good or it isn't, whatever the approach may be. Want to see extraordinary energy and risk-taking? Go see Keiji Haino or Acid Mothers Temple. At the opposite end of the spectrum, watch/listen to Kraftwerk's Minimum-Maximum DVD. That performance is managed to the extreme, but it's far from soulless or boring. Quite the opposite, really: it's fun and compelling. Can't say anything like that about the Crimson Kings.

[krabapple]

<shrug> Copeland *was* a fine drummer in his day, and I'm sure Bruford knows as much about time sigs as you do. From what I've read BB's jazz tastes run to Elvin Jones/postbop stuff. I never would have pegged you for a jazz snob....

Knowing jazz does not necessarily equate with being a "jazz snob". As for Copeland, so what if he wedged in complicated time signatures to MOR pop tunes? I have a drum machine that can play even more complicated tme sigs at a much faster rate than Copeland and Bruford put together. What does that prove? Nothing. What does Copeland's show-off antics prove? Nada.

"Show off antics' to you, might be admirable prowess to a musician.
Different strokes, you know. Bruford's perspective is undoubtedly different from yours.

Incomprehension? No. I've done my research. This was not the 1969 or the 1972-74 group, nor even the Earthbound line-up -- all three of those bands took a lot of chances in concert. The 1995 show was stage-managed to the most anal detail, bar the laughable alloted 10-minute or so "improv" portion (i.e., the "groove to a pentatonic scale" recess; these guys cannot improvise.

I've got a disc called Thrakattak that's simply a bunch of those improvs strung together...it's easily my favorite KC work from that era. Different strokes again.

Derek Bailey or AMM they ain't -- more of a tight-assed jam band, really. Fine if you like that sort of thing.) The double trio pretty much played the Thrak album in its entirety, in perfect sequence, with absolutely no variation or risk-taking.

I was at some of those show. The tour's also well documented on disc. To say there was 'absolutely no variation' is sheer overstatement, sorry. THey were not as good as the early 80's shows -- KC a the Savoy in 1981, touring Discipline, is still one of THE best concerts I've ever seen -- but better than the post Bruford/Levin shows. Sorry you hated it.

Now, anoraks would argue that said Professionalism was At A Very High Standard -- in that the cross-picking was managed to such a degree that not a solitary plectrum was ever dropped, the complex time sigs never wavered, the myriad strings of the Stick were perfectly in tune, Fripp never once fell off his potty chair -- but then only anoraks are impressed with the flabby display of empty technique and the superhuman adhesive qualities of Fripp's buttocks stuck to the Mercy Seat. And my verdict is that King Crimson, particularly the 90s King Crimson, is: pompous, flashy technique grafted onto (let's face it) mediocre MOR pop tunes, rather like the Philip Glass Ensemble playing the Phil Collins songbook. And THIS is why they attract a Guitar Player-reading audience that greets hammy antics such as WHAMMY BAR ELEPHANT NOISES as if they heralded the second coming. (Talk about your true Spinal Tap moments...)

Oops, sorry. I got distracted there for a minute. Are you done? Feel better now?

Oh, gee damned by fanboy quotes. How many bands would NOT yield this result?

By their fruits shall ye know them.... Actually, you're right, but since Fripp despises his audience so much, I thought it necessary to get into the trenches and try and find out why that is. (But how he can tolerate Adrian Belew is a mystery.)

This audience he despises...it is the one he always holds Q&A sessions with after his solo shows? Sheesh, you'd think he was MILES DAVIS from the way you describe him. Do you WANT fripp to be your friend?

(Fripp, btw, *does* know who Adorno is. Maybe you'd get along better with him than with Bruford. )

But I did learn a few things:

1. Fripp sits down onstage because he is a dwarf. If he stood, the top of his head would only be inches above Levin's navel.

Then again, Levin is a giant, by that sort of rhetoric.

2. Short man's syndrome also explains how and why Fripp spent a lonely adolescence locked in his room, cultivating his festering misanthropy and vowing to show them all up by becoming the fastest guitarist in all of Little Britain.

LOL. Please...how many guitarists of that era DIDN'T do the adolescent woodshed thing? How many still do> (And, believe it or not, the little guy had a rep in the first flower of Crimson, for being a serious groupie-fucker -- so , lifetime average he's probable had more squack than you and me put together.)

(Thank god mum bought him a guitar in which to channel his feelings of resentment and inadequacy; he could've just as likely become the most notorious serial killer in the Village Green.)

Hmm...you've built a rather elaborate scenario here...how long has this been bothering you?

3. Belew's ugliness explains how and why he spent a lonely adolescence locked in his room, cultivating his overcompensating narcissism and vowing to show up his detractors by becoming the world's foremost exponent of elephant noises as rendered on the Strat whammy bar....... (Did he really think THAT was finally going to get him the girls????)

I dunno...probably. It's not uncommon. Billy Joel married a model or too, remember. Wimmens, who can figure them. But IIRC Belew's been married for decades.

One more thing -- I don't go for any either/or sloppy/non-sloppy dichotomy. Eiher it's good or it isn't, whatever the approach may be. Want to see extraordinary energy and risk-taking? Go see Keiji Haino or Acid Mothers Temple. At the opposite end of the spectrum, watch/listen to Kraftwerk's Minimum-Maximum DVD. That performance is managed to the extreme, but it's far from soulless or boring. Quite the opposite, really: it's fun and compelling. Can't say anything like that about the Crimson Kings.

But I can. See how it works?

Anyway, thanks for the fun rant.
Can I get you to do a riff on the Grateful Dead?

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

Can I get you to do a riff on the Grateful Dead?

No. I could (and did) slog my way through the Crimson discography, but there's NO WAY, NO HOW I'm touching a Grateful Dead album, even if you had a gun to my head. (Sudden death is preferable to a drawn-out spiritual death.)

[Beatlesfan03]

I think you''ve answered my question. Fuck sloppy rock. It's a cliche.

Yeah it is, but it can be fun too.

<shrug> So can prog. Guess what, since I can have fun listening to the White Stripes and Nirvana as well as King Crimson and Yes, I HAVE MORE FUN THAN YOU. NYAAAH.

Really, reverse rock snobbism is *such* a load of tedious bullshit. Let a hundred flowers bloom.

Yeah, prog can be fun but I guess in the end it wasn't my cup of tea. I certainly would by no means turn off Crimson if I heard it on the radio. First, because it would be miracle that the classic rock station would play Crimson in the first place, and second because I didn't give up on the albums because they bored me or anything, I guess I just grew out of that prog phase.

But the idea that KC live is an exact replica of KC studio -- or even tries to be -- is kind of laughable. Perhaps they've moved more into that direction -- I haven't followed them much closely since BB and Levin left -- but their long time reputation is *quite* the opposite.

Maybe this isn't directed towards me, but I didn't say that they were an exact replica of their studio performance, it seemed to come off that way. I don't remember all the specifics of the show so I can't deny that any improv did or didn't happen. Overall, I was underwhelmed by the performance simple as that.

As a sidenote, if you ever want to see a bunch of punk rock kids run for cover, I used to play "Damage" the Sylvian/Fripp live album loads when it first came out and I swear to God the kid I worked with saw his life flash before his eyes several times. It was 72 minutes of pure hell for this kid. Never I had ever been asked so many times "Is this over yet?"

Krab - out of curiousity - do you like any of the stuff Fripp did with David Sylvian?

[krabapple]

Can I get you to do a riff on the Grateful Dead?

No. I could (and did) slog my way through the Crimson discography, but there's NO WAY, NO HOW I'm touching a Grateful Dead album, even if you had a gun to my head. (Sudden death is preferable to a drawn-out spiritual death.)

OK, how about Rush then?

[krabapple]

I think you''ve answered my question. Fuck sloppy rock. It's a cliche.

Yeah it is, but it can be fun too.

<shrug> So can prog. Guess what, since I can have fun listening to the White Stripes and Nirvana as well as King Crimson and Yes, I HAVE MORE FUN THAN YOU. NYAAAH.

Really, reverse rock snobbism is *such* a load of tedious bullshit. Let a hundred flowers bloom.

Yeah, prog can be fun but I guess in the end it wasn't my cup of tea. I certainly would by no means turn off Crimson if I heard it on the radio. First, because it would be miracle that the classic rock station would play Crimson in the first place, and second because I didn't give up on the albums because they bored me or anything, I guess I just grew out of that prog phase.

Scary thing about getting older is, I'm finding anything can be my cup of tea. I can basically give any music -- top 40 pop, rap, country, club, nu-metal, in addition to all the stuff I grew up with , like guitar-based rock -- a listen these days, and even come to like it. That also includes stuff I used to hate, like 80's alterna-rock. Except maybe the Cure. They still suck.

Krab - out of curiousity - do you like any of the stuff Fripp did with David Sylvian?

I'm not familiar with any of it.

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

OK, how about Rush then?

I have an aversion to Cannuck eunuchs spouting Ayn Rand as well. Keep trying.

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

I've never heard Sylvian's work with Fripp, but the two Holger Czukay/David Sylvian collaborations are fantastic.