Kinks - The Reprise Years - needle drops, best sources

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JWB
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Kinks - The Reprise Years - needle drops, best sources

Postby JWB » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:36 am

I'm working on some Kinks mono 45 needle drops and I just did some comparisons.

First of all, the needle drops completely blow away all CD versions I've heard.

The tracks on "Kinks Kronikles" are hissy and dull, are transferred in stereo, and often run too slow, but they have longer fade-outs than the Pye single, usually by 2 or 3 seconds.

The single tracks on "The Great Lost Kinks" album actually sound better on the LP, though they were transferred in stereo so you have to pick a channel.

The Essential/Castle mono remasters are very shrill, yet they have no high end to speak of, and no tape hiss either. Muffled, yet headache enducing. They didn't bother to pick a channel either...it's a stereo transfer again. The fadeouts are usually a second or two shorter than the Pye single...no surprise from the hiss police.

So far I'm doing these LP's:

Face To Face (Reprise mono) & related singles
Something Else (Pye mono) & related singles
Arthur (Pye mono) & related singles
The Great Lost Kinks LP

I'm satisfied with the Village Green Deluxe and Lola CD's for now.

What do you guys consider the best CD sources for all the Kinks Reprise albums?

Here's what I've been able to gather, please tell me if you disagree:

Face To Face Mono: none, LP is best
Face To Face Stereo: PRT
Something Else Mono: none, LP is best
Something Else Stereo: Japan Mini-LP
Village Green Mono: Deluxe Edition
Village Green Stereo: PRT or Deluxe Edition
Arthur Mono: Japan Mini-LP
Arthur Stereo: PRT
Lola: PRT
Percy: PRT

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MK
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Postby MK » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:36 pm

The shrill but no hiss/high-end sound of the Essential/Castle remasters are consistent with the engineering of the recordings and the mastering.

As Steve sez, they used a crappy EQ that is THE definition of TINNY, and to a certain extent shrill. Heyworth mastered the CD's and this was back in his CEDAR choppin' days, which is what he did: processed everything in CEDAR noise reduction. Blech. He should've un-did the crappy EQ, that could've gone a long way in reducing 'noise' and any tape hiss without ruining the music.

Do you prefer mono or stereo? I think PRT may be the best in a lot of stereo cases, but I prefer mono, so I'm stuck with Essential/Castle.

Still, I'd highly recommend taming those upper frequencies on the later stuff, probably Face to Face and beyond, I can't remember. Steve Hoffman claimed that those recordings have NEVER been given the correct tonality on disc and said he would've done it if DCC hadn't collapsed (resulting in his Kinks project getting aborted).
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JWB
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Postby JWB » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:56 pm

MK wrote:The shrill but no hiss/high-end sound of the Essential/Castle remasters are consistent with the engineering of the recordings and the mastering.


The original 45's aren't that bad. There is plenty of treble and they're not as shrill. Simon H. stripped away what was there with NR and then unsuccessfully tried to EQ it back in.

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Postby Andreas » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:13 am

Have any of you heard my favorite, the "Greatest Hits" CD from 1985, PRT, CDKINK 7251?

See also http://forums.lukpac.org/viewtopic.php?t=874

David Xenu Goodwin has a copy, maybe he can give a review. Since this CD is a SH recommendation and a pretty rare item as well, I guess I am suspicious of following the hype. :)

For me, that is the definitive sound of the singles on CD. They have a great bottom end, no shrillness at all, but also none of that muddiness that can be heard on "Hit Singles" or the "Complete Collection". Of course, things like the intro to Autumn Almanac will always sound dirty, and that's fine.

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Xenu
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Postby Xenu » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:48 pm

Anybody want me to post a big comparison FLAC/MP3?
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Postby Andreas » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:38 am

Xenu wrote:Anybody want me to post a big comparison FLAC/MP3?

Would that include needle drops?

What is your verdict on the "Greatest Hits" CD?

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Postby dudelsack » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:11 am

I also like the PRT stuff, though I would also prefer more mono than stereo.

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Xenu
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Postby Xenu » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:48 pm

Andreas wrote:
Xenu wrote:Anybody want me to post a big comparison FLAC/MP3?

Would that include needle drops?

What is your verdict on the "Greatest Hits" CD?


No, it wouldn't include needle-drops (I have none).

Re. Greatest Hits: I liked it, but never really bothered to compare it to much. It does sound better than that awful PRT "Hits" CD, though.

Shall I compare it to, say, Ultimate Collection, the PRT Hits disc, the Castle "Singles Collection," the Rhino Greatest Hits, and a few others?

(I don't have the "Well Respected Men" thing)

-D
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Postby Andreas » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:28 am

Xenu wrote:
Shall I compare it to, say, Ultimate Collection, the PRT Hits disc, the Castle "Singles Collection," the Rhino Greatest Hits, and a few others?

(I don't have the "Well Respected Men" thing)

-D

Yes! I don't have the Rhino Greatest Hits nor the "Singles Collection".

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Postby MK » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:05 pm

I got a hold of Kinks Kronikles on CD. First of all, the mastering ain't great. Having said that, it also serves as a painful reminder of how SHITTY the 1998 remasters sound.

I only compared it to the U.S. Reprise CD and the 1998 Castle remaster of Something Else. The 1998 Castle remaster favors mono, the Reprise CD and Kronikles favor stereo where possible. It's obvious Kinks Kronikles are nth generation dubs - I don't think the Reprise Lp's or CD's were ever sourced from the absolute first generation tapes, but compared to the Reprise CD of Something Else, the same tracks on Kronikles sound like dubs. The Reprise CD of Something Else sounds a bit wider, or at least the left channel further out when comparing the same three tracks on Kronikles. I think there's more tape hiss on Kronikles, something more audible on the 'spoken' opening of "David Watts," which would back this up.

Some have mentioned that the opening track, "David Watts" has the left channel all chewed-up on the Reprise CD of Something Else. That's correct, and the damage doesn't show up on Kronikles, but the trade-off is the loss in clarity, etc. "Waterloo Sunset" on Kronikles, though, definitely sounds like crap compared to the Reprise CD, I don't know why it's especially worse but it is.

Four songs on Kronikles show up as bonus tracks on the 1998 remaster of Something Else. However, "Autumn Almanac" and "Susannah's Still Alive" are stereo on Kronikles, not mono like the 1998 remaster. The stereo mix of "Autumn Almanac" fades in until the rest of the band kicks in, unlike the mono mix which is unfaded and 'whole,' but the fade-out on the stereo mix is later and possible longer, allowing you to hear more of the cool studio effects done towards the end of the recording.

When you get to "Polly" and "Wonderboy," this is where the 1998 remaster really fails. For some odd reason, there's a *slight* fade-in on the opening bars of "Polly", but otherwise the same exact mono mix is used on Kronikles...but they sound SOOO much better. On the 1998 remaster, they sound like absolute SHIT. There's NO way you can defend the mastering. Listen to the snare drum and piano on both masterings. They sound NATURAL on Kronikles, on the 1998 remaster, it's been DENOISED to DEATH. UNNATURAL as hell, WTF? Did Heyworth use a shitty freeware program and denoised them that way because it sounds like it! Forget about how much tape hiss was taken out, just listen to the instruments, they sound REALLY, REALLY SHITTY. Ugh. Oh, and the EQ is waaaay too bright, which sure as hell doesn't help. I tried undoing it, but it's like spraying perfume on a pile of dog shit - not much of an improvement.
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Postby JWB » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:25 pm

"Polly" is stereo on "Kronikles" and mono on the remaster. The fade-up is an intentional part of the mono mix.

I just did a needle drop of Something Else (mono) and it blows away the miserable remaster. They are NR'd and EQ'd so badly....

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Postby MK » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:05 pm

Ah, you're right, I was only listening to the first bit of it, but at 0:32, with the horns/strings kick in, "Polly" is clearly stereo (up until then it sounds mono, but maybe it's just very narrow stereo - it's actually a crummy stereo mix fidelity-wise compared to "Susannah's Still Alive" and others).

I don't have any other copies of the mono single version, but the small fade-up is on the stereo version on the Kronikles CD, not the allegedly (mono) 45 version on the 98 remaster. It's possible the fade was undone/not-done in the mastering...kind of like the Who's "Pictures of Lily" and how only Steve supposedly maintained the fade.

I also compared "Wonderboy" on Kronikles with the mastering on the pink doughnut Greatest Hits (thanks Andreas) - both mono 45 mixes, the Greatest Hits CD definitely sounds like a better tape, and if Steve's right, they used the original master on the Greatest Hits CD.

BTW, I also tried EQ'ing "Waterloo Sunset" on the 1998 remaster to match the Greatest Hits mastering of the same mono mix, no way it can be done. I don't know if it's the CEDAR processing or the Trident EQ console they used, Steve also mentioned that the same console really kills any music that runs through it (like the Bowie Rykodisc remasters), but listen to that guitar on the 1998 remaster. Hardened, cold, brittle, you can match the EQ but Heyworth just killed the timber of that thing. Ugh.
"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war." – Dwight D. Eisenhower



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Postby lukpac » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:17 am

I only have the Reprise CD, and I'd have to pull it out to check, but this is interesting if true:

http://www.bsnpubs.com/chat/chat9908.html

Name: Chip Cristarella
From: NJ
Time: 1999-08-12 10:02:55
Comments: This is for those who want to know what the CSG process was. WARNING: This does get a little bit technical. "CSG" stands for "Compatible Stereo Groove", and was an attempt spearheaded by Warners in 1968/9 to address a little remembered fact concerning listening to stereo material in mono. When you "collapse" a stereo mix into mono, whatever is mixed to the center of the image increases in apparent loudness by 3db. Thus, you are altering the balance of the mix, making whatever was panned center louder than intended. The CSG process addressed this by the process of variable progressive pahse cancellation. It took the image and applied a varible L minus R signal to it, which affected the center most, and progressively less to sounds panned from center to the extreme left or right. It didn't provide a total cancellation, just enough so that center sounds cancelled by 3db when heard in mono, and less as the mix widened. Just one problem. IT SOUNDED HORRIBLE! While it sounded passable in mono, in stereo, these treated discs have indistinct imaging,and poor sloppy sounding bass. That's why Bones Howe mixed the Association's "Birthday" LP hard L/R, no middle: doing that effecively placed the CSG system out of the circuit. One consolation is that it was not a recording or mix process. Finished mixes were copied to another tape thru the system, and that tape was used for cutting the LP's.(Although I'm sure a few were mixed thru the system. Murphy's Law, you know.) I won't get into how since hardly anyone remembers the process, the wrong (read: processed) tapes have been used for CD mastering. (I have a Kinks "Village Green" Reprise CD that used the CSG tape as it's source, not the tape sent from Pye.) Holco (sp?) was the originator of the process. And would you believe MONO tapes were processed too?!?! (I've got the 45's......)


Name: Chip Cristarella
From: New Jersey
Time: 1999-08-13 23:14:04
Comments: Thanks for all the kind words about my explanation of the CSG process. Here are the answers to questions I received. To Don: My Reprise CD of the Kinks "Village Green" CD is catalog number 6327-2, and I think I purchased it in the early 90's. (There's no date anywhere on the disc or packaging) It was a "budget" release if I remember correctly and sold for around $9.00 then. It was a surprise to me too, that it was a CSG master, because the original Reprise LP didn't mention it. But then, I never played my original because I had a Japanese pressing of the album first, and, well, you know how good those used to be! (For those too young to remember, Japanese LP's were PERFECT! No warps, clicks, pops, or ANY extraneous noise. And the lyric sheets and deluxe packaging! For EVERY title!) But listening to the CD immediately slapped it in my face. Yep, there it was, that damn phasey hollow sounding bass, poor center imaging, and overall "haze" that made it's pedigree known. Just like the Reprise LP I sampled immediately after.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

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Postby Andreas » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:09 am

So there supposedly is a CSG master and a CSG-free-pre-master? The PRT CD does not sound like CSG, although the stereo mix is a bit wonky.

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Postby lukpac » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:37 am

That's the sound of it, although my Reprise CD is currently in a box on my front porch.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD