Can "Unlimited Edition" remaster shortened

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

For the two or three people here who care about this:

I recently obtained the SACD remaster of Can's Unlimited Edition. Needless to say, it suffers from the same problems that all of the Can remasters exhibit: drowned in excessive NR, fucked up EQing in places, etc. The original CDs are FAR superior, no question about it.

Anyway, the weird thing about the Unlimited Edition remaster is that "Cutaway" is shortened! The track is 18:19 on the 1991 CD, and it's 17:10 on the remaster (at least on the CD layer; I don't have any means to play the SACD layer). To be more precise, take away the gaps of silence (which I did in Peak) and the 1991 "Cutaway" is 18:18.153 and the remastered "Cutaway" is 17:07.901

The beginnings and ends of each track are identical, so the excised 1 minute and 11 seconds occurs (or doesn't) somewhere in the middle. I've yet to figure out just what has been excised, but will listen carefully tonight.

All other tracks appear identical in length. Again, I don't know if "Cutaway" on the SACD layer is the same as the redbook layer or not.



Update: It's not a single chunk of music missing. It's more like 12 seconds here, 8 seconds there, etc. Why this was done, I have no idea. If there's any interest, I'll post a full report once I'm finished.

[Ess Ay Cee Dee]

That's fucked up.

What is the capacity of the CD layer on a hybrid disc? I'm wondering if it's a bit less than the 79+ minutes you can fit on a "normal" redbook CD. That would explain the trims, though there's still no excuse for it.

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

That's fucked up.

What is the capacity of the CD layer on a hybrid disc? I'm wondering if it's a bit less than the 79+ minutes you can fit on a "normal" redbook CD. That would explain the trims, though there's still no excuse for it.

Never thought of that. You're probably right.

[lukpac]

What is the capacity of the CD layer on a hybrid disc? I'm wondering if it's a bit less than the 79+ minutes you can fit on a "normal" redbook CD. That would explain the trims, though there's still no excuse for it.

It shouldn't be any different. I'm pretty sure the CD layer of the Sam Cooke disc is something like 79:30 (the SACD layer is something like 83 - the interview at the end is longer).

[Ess Ay Cee Dee]

Hmmmm.... If that's the case, then it's really a head-scratcher. Is Holger turning into a Zappa-esque revisionist in his old age?

I don't have too many Sack Dee hybrids, but I do know that the hybrid version of Dylan's 73-minute Blonde on Blonde was split up into two discs. Of course, that may have been because there wasn't enough room for all of the "hi-rez" material since there's also a 5.1 mix. (That still doesn't explain what happened with Unlimited Edition--there's no 5.1 mix there, just stereo.)

[Rspaight]

The deal with the Dylan disc had to do with the SACD material -- at "full bandwidth" (going all the way up to 100kHz or something ludicrous) you can't get 70+ minutes of stereo *and* 5.1 on one disc. Other such discs (like Tommy) manage it by putting in a low-pass filter at 40 or 50k.

Ryan

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

Total time of the 1991 CD reads 78:49; the remaster (redbook layer) is 77:31.

Is Holger turning into a Zappa-esque revisionist in his old age?

Doubt it. He had nothing to do with this remaster. He, along with the rest of the band, signed off on it, but Holger didn't do the deed. (He DID do the original CDs, though -- flat transfers from the masters; no processing or anything else.)

[lukpac]

The deal with the Dylan disc had to do with the SACD material -- at "full bandwidth" (going all the way up to 100kHz or something ludicrous) you can't get 70+ minutes of stereo *and* 5.1 on one disc. Other such discs (like Tommy) manage it by putting in a low-pass filter at 40 or 50k.

Yeah - for once I thought Jon Astley actually did something that made sense. I remember talking to Bill Levenson about the Allmans Fillmore SACD, and he indicated to fit things on one disc he would have had to have done that, and he didn't want to sacrifice quality. Is there a CD-4 signal we're not aware of or something?

Although...I'd like to know exactly how SACD/DSD works in regards to space when you limit the bandwidth.

[Xenu]

Although...I'd like to know exactly how SACD/DSD works in regards to space when you limit the bandwidth.

So would I...I wasn't aware that there were things like "half-bandwidth" available for the SACD spec.

Re. the Can remasters: I wouldn't go as far to say "drowning in NR," etc. They sound OK...only a few tracks realy pile on the compression. That said, I mean, c'mon...why bother?

I don't have my discs with me at the moment, but a real "what the heck?" moment occurs at the beginning of "Tango Whiskeyman" on the remaster. The song starts out with a nice, normal layer of hiss...which fades out by the fourth or fifth second.

Again, the remasters aren't abysmal, but level-match the original discs and I honestly don't see what the "improvement" is supposed to be. And, needless to say, editing "Unlimited Edition" is a fucking shame. Have you posted anywhere else about this?

-D

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

Re. the Can remasters: I wouldn't go as far to say "drowning in NR," etc. They sound OK...only a few tracks realy pile on the compression. That said, I mean, c'mon...why bother?

I don't have my discs with me at the moment, but a real "what the heck?" moment occurs at the beginning of "Tango Whiskeyman" on the remaster. The song starts out with a nice, normal layer of hiss...which fades out by the fourth or fifth second.

Again, the remasters aren't abysmal, but level-match the original discs and I honestly don't see what the "improvement" is supposed to be. And, needless to say, editing "Unlimited Edition" is a fucking shame. Have you posted anywhere else about this?

I have level-matched and carefully compared each of the remasters to their older CD counterparts and the remasters are indeed abysmal. These may even sound "good" if one has never heard the LPs or the original CDs, but if you are as familiar with this stuff as I am (from German UA vinyl to original Spoon CDs), these remasters really are shit. Ege Bamyasi in particular has been re-EQ'd and fucked with in the most grotesque manner imaginable. All of the other remasters sound muffled and pinched. It's subtle but it's there throughout.

A real classic NR example occurs at the water sound intro of "Sing Swan Song" on Ege Bamyasi. Listen to the old CD, then listen to the remaster. Hear that hiss on the original? Gone from the remaster. Hear that layer of two of sound present on the original? That's gone from the remaster also. Horrible.

By "posting anywhere else," I assume you mean SHtv. Can't say that I have, or even could if I wanted to. My (banned) IP address must be on a sticky on each gorf's PC monitor. Feel free to post about the truncated Unlimited Edition there, if you'd like.

[Xenu]

I grabbed it. This one sounds...well, shittier than several of the others. The beginning of TV Spot sounds very, very weird.