Merry-Go-Round/Emitt Rhodes question

Just what the name says.
Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby Dob » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:55 pm

lukpac wrote:Well, it's *possible* that UMG sent them the same digital masters they sent whoever did the Japanese CDs (assuming they sent *them* digital masters).

As far as sound quality is concerned, do you think there would be any advantage to working with the digital masters used to make the CD vs the CD itself?

I remember way back on SHtv in a thread about MFSL Quadrophenia, SH implied that the UD might sound different from the the UD2 because (due to a money dispute with the Japan pressing plant) MFSL couldn't use the same digital masters for the UD2. I asked him why using a copy of the master (or a UD1 CD, for that matter) would make a difference, but he never answered. IIRC, you participated in that thread and were curious about the same thing...
Dob
-------------------
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

User avatar
Xenu
Sellout
Posts: 2209
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:15 pm

Postby Xenu » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:26 pm

Dob wrote:As far as sound quality is concerned, do you think there would be any advantage to working with the digital masters used to make the CD vs the CD itself?


No...there shouldn't be. It "sounds" worse to say a company used a pre-existing CD to master its album than to say they used "the same digital tapes," I guess, as the latter implies some degree of access.

I remember way back on SHtv in a thread about MFSL Quadrophenia, SH implied that the UD might sound different from the the UD2 because (due to a money dispute with the Japan pressing plant) MFSL couldn't use the same digital masters for the UD2.


Glass master, not digital master. So they made new ones from their digital masters, which would thus account for timing/indexing differences.

Anyway, Luke, mind posting a sample of "Time Will Show the Wiser?"
-------------
"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:45 am

Dob wrote:As far as sound quality is concerned, do you think there would be any advantage to working with the digital masters used to make the CD vs the CD itself?


Like I've said before, digitally identical is digitally identical. So no.

Give me a few minutes on TWSTW.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:04 am

"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

Dob
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby Dob » Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:04 pm

Xenu wrote:Glass master, not digital master. So they made new ones from their digital masters, which would thus account for timing/indexing differences.

I think SH was referring the digital masters. The glass masters could only be used for making UDs, not UD2s, right?

Unless the intent of MFSL was to make another run of UDs in the USA and label them as UD2s...which I guess wouldn't be all that surprising, and I think that's what a lot of folks believe anyway. When you find UDs/UD2s that are digitally identical, it's difficult to come up with another explanation.
Dob

-------------------

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance" -- HL Mencken

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:00 pm

Dob wrote:I think SH was referring the digital masters. The glass masters could only be used for making UDs, not UD2s, right?


I had understood Steve as saying digital (tape) masters, but there's no reason why MFSL couldn't have used the glass masters for the UDII series, AFAIK (if they had them, of course).

Unless the intent of MFSL was to make another run of UDs in the USA and label them as UD2s...which I guess wouldn't be all that surprising, and I think that's what a lot of folks believe anyway. When you find UDs/UD2s that are digitally identical, it's difficult to come up with another explanation.


Well, I think in the majority of cases, the only difference between a UD and a UDII is the UDII was made in the US.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
Xenu
Sellout
Posts: 2209
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:15 pm

Postby Xenu » Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:03 pm

http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/missingyou.mp3

That's "Missing You" from Rhodes Less Travelled. Tell me how it compares, sir.

-D
-------------

"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:19 pm

Does the end cut off like that on the CD?

If it's the same source, the new CD is quite processed (no stereo vinyl noise, NR). I'll check 'em out later.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:17 pm

Xenu wrote:That's "Missing You" from Rhodes Less Travelled. Tell me how it compares, sir.


Doesn't stay in sync.

HOWEVER, at about 1:08 (after "more than ever") there's a dropout in the left channel only of your file. The right channel seems fine. That same dropout is on the new CD.

With THAT said, however, at 0:44 (right before "and through the morning...") there's a vinyl tic on the new CD. It isn't there on your file. There's also one a second earlier on your file that isn't there on the new CD.

Perhaps while the mix was mono, the 45 was actually stereo? I can't think of any other way to explain that dropout problem.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:53 am

Recording dates and single releases, per the liners:

1. Live
- Late 1966 * A&M 834
2. Time Will Show the Wiser
- Dec 21, 27, 28 1966 & Jan 3, 12 1967 @ Sunset * A&M 834
3. On Your Way Out
- Nov 4, 1966 @ Columbia
4. Gonna Fight the War
- 1967 * A&M 857 & 863
5. Had to Run Around
- May 4, 1967 @ Sunset * A&M 886
6. We're in Love
- Feb 10, 13 & Apr 26, 1967 @ Sunset & Western * A&M 857
7. You're a Very Lovely Woman
- Mar 31 & Jun 10 1967 @ Sunset & Western * A&M 863 & 1254
8. Where Have You Been All My Life
- Mar 30 1967 @ Western
9. Early in the Morning
- Nov 9, 15, 17, 21 1966 @ Columbia & Sunset
10. Low Down
- Mar 30 1967 @ Western
11. A Clown's No Good
- late 1966
12. Gonna Leave You Alone
- Nov 9, 15, 17 1966 @ Columbia & Sunset * A&M 920

Liners indicate Live and A Clown's No Good were cut as demos, which is probably why they simply say "late 1966".

13. Mother Earth
- July 25, 30 & Nov 25 1969 @ A&M
14. Pardon Me
- Sept 13 1968 @ Wally Heider's
15. Textile Factory
- Feb 7 & Dec 11 1969 @ A&M
16. Someone Died
- Apr 23 1969 @ A&M
17. Come Ride, Come Ride
- Nov 28, 29 1967 @ Western * A&M 889
18. Let's All Sing
- 1969
19. Holly Park
- Sep 13 1968 & Nov 20 1969 @ Wally Heider's & A&M
20. Mary Will You Take My Hand
- July 25 1969 @ A&M
21. The Man He Was
- July 28 1969 @ A&M
22. In Days of Old
- Sep 13 1968 & Nov 21 1969 @ Wally Heider's * A&M
23. 'Til the Day After
- Mar 4, 5, 6 1968 @ Columbia * A&M 957 & 1254
24. Saturday Night
- Nov 19 1968 & Apr 23, 30 1969 @ A&M

25. She Laughed Loud
- Sep 19 & Oct 4, 6 1967 @ United & Western * A&M 886 & 889
26. Listen, Listen
- Feb 6, 13, 20, 21 1968 @ Annex * A&M 920
27. Missing You
- Apr 29 1968 @ Sunset * A&M 920
28. Highway
- Mar 31 1967 @ Western * A&M 957
29. Time Will Show the Wiser [Mono 45]
- Dec 21, 27, 28 1966 & Jan 3, 12 1967 @ Sunset * A&M 834
California Girls
- (not listed, liners indicate March 1968; recording at Columbia with overdubs at Gold Star by the wrecking crew)
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:53 pm

lukpac wrote:Liners indicate Live and A Clown's No Good were cut as demos, which is probably why they simply say "late 1966".


And I guess that jives with this:

http://users2.ev1.net/~kryan73/emitt/emittstory.html
After rehearsing until they were comfortable playing together, the group headed to the studio and plunked down $500 to record demos of two of their songs — "Live" and "Clown's No Good."

"We went to the studio with the idea that we were gonna demo... so we could listen to it," relates Emitt. "We just went in and played it — that was it. We didn't spend any time working on it. Nowadays, you work on things. It was just pretty much live; we did work vocals and then overdubbed the vocals. It wasn't like making a record today." A&M Records heard the demo of "Live" and decided to sign the band. Gary Kato remembers; "We used the original demo of 'Live', but we beefed it up after A&M signed us. We transferred it from the original four-track, which we had recorded over at Western Sound Recorders about four months earlier." The song was transferred to eight-track at Sunset Sound, and the band laid down guitar and vocal overdubs to thicken up the sound. A&M released the dressed-up demo as a single but wasn't prepared for the song to do as well as it did. It quickly shot to the number one spot in L.A.


I'd be curious to know when Sunset went 8-track. Does anyone know exactly when The Doors (4-track) was recorded?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:03 am

lukpac wrote:
Xenu wrote:That's "Missing You" from Rhodes Less Travelled. Tell me how it compares, sir.


Doesn't stay in sync.

HOWEVER, at about 1:08 (after "more than ever") there's a dropout in the left channel only of your file. The right channel seems fine. That same dropout is on the new CD.

With THAT said, however, at 0:44 (right before "and through the morning...") there's a vinyl tic on the new CD. It isn't there on your file. There's also one a second earlier on your file that isn't there on the new CD.

Perhaps while the mix was mono, the 45 was actually stereo? I can't think of any other way to explain that dropout problem.


I just realized that's also on the Rhino best-of LP. Perhaps that LP (obviously stereo) has the drop-out, and all copies since then have been dubs of that?
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
Xenu
Sellout
Posts: 2209
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 8:15 pm

Postby Xenu » Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:27 pm

That's probably it.
-------------

"Fuckin' Koreans" - Reno 911

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:55 pm

Is Highway on Rhodes Less Traveled? That one seems like a notch below Missing You.

I find it interesting that on both there are clicks that would have easily been removed with a declick plug-in. Yet both have noise reduction.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD

User avatar
lukpac
Top Dog and Sellout
Posts: 4585
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Postby lukpac » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:39 pm

Ok, I don't know who Tim Sendra is, but he apparently contributes to the AMG and now has a copy. It's nice to see he updated the biography and added a review of the new set, but I think if I had written the liner notes to that set I'd be pretty pissed: most of the stuff on AMG is just ripped from those. And, much to Xenu's dismay, he has this to say:

When you strip away the excess sweetening, though, [The American Dream] is at its heart a solid pop record, not up to the standard of what preceded it or what followed


No mention of the tracks lifted from vinyl, of course.
"I know because it is impossible for a tape to hold the compression levels of these treble boosted MFSL's like Something/Anything. The metal particulate on the tape would shatter and all you'd hear is distortion if even that." - VD