Elton John (Best CD's)

Just what the name says.
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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:44 pm

Apparen tly Hoffman prefers to hear what the tapes sounded like, even if it's crap, but doesn't necessarily want others to; see the thread on SHtv about the upcoming Analog Products LP of 'Fragile' (Yes), where SH says a flat transfer of the masters 'doesn't work'.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showt ... hp?t=88788
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dudelsack
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Postby dudelsack » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:46 pm

In that case, it sounds like he's scared of losing business to MoFi. He obviously knew ahead of time what was going on and was laying some negative comments down before their full meaning could be parsed.

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MK
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Postby MK » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:13 pm

That's one of their commandments, a flat transfer is always preferable unless Steve mastered the album, then a flat transfer becomes unlistenable crap...unless Steve's mastering IS a flat transfer, in which case he did the right thing! :roll:
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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:57 pm

dudelsack wrote:In that case, it sounds like he's scared of losing business to MoFi. He obviously knew ahead of time what was going on and was laying some negative comments down before their full meaning could be parsed.


Well, he implies too that if any of the previous CD releases from the master tapes sound good (e.g., the Gastwirt), they can't have been transferred flat either. I presume this also applies to the good sounding LP versions released over the years. Which suggests the MofI won'e be 'flat' either. Which also implies that this album was never meant to be released 'as is'; it was always expected that more tweaking would be applied during cutting (obviously Eddie Offord could not have had digital remastering in mind). Perhaps there are even instructions for same on the tape box. And if that's true of this, why not others?

In this case it comes down to this question for SH (which someone else will have to ask) what makes tweaking the dull-sounding Fragile tapes a necessity, while for the dull-sounding Elton John tapes its a no-no?

(I suspect MK already posted the answer)

fwiw, I compared .wavs of the left channel of Roundabout on several CD (and the DVD-A) versions recently, and found that the original CD had a much heftier dip in level centered around 13 kHz, compared to the others, though it had comparable or more bass. That's probably why it sounds so dull/bassy compared to others. Was it a flat transfer of the master tape?

http://www.m-ideas.com/sullivan/auditio ... t_freq.htm
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Andreas
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Postby Andreas » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:16 am

MK wrote:That's one of their commandments, a flat transfer is always preferable unless Steve mastered the album, then a flat transfer becomes unlistenable crap...unless Steve's mastering IS a flat transfer, in which case he did the right thing! :roll:

"Their"? That"s quite some generalization. :roll:

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Postby Andreas » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:22 am

krabapple wrote:In this case it comes down to this question for SH (which someone else will have to ask) what makes tweaking the dull-sounding Fragile tapes a necessity, while for the dull-sounding Elton John tapes its a no-no?


I didn't understand Steve in that way.

He said that the eq on the DJM was too extreme. Obviously, he prefers a flat transfer over a mastering job that was different from what he would have done. That doesn't mean that the flat transfer is the most pleasant to listen to. I think he made similar comments about the MFSL Tumbleweed Connection.

Anyway, it is highly surprising to listen to the "Your Songs" CD. If the DJM was extreme, then the eq on "Your Songs" was overkill.

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Postby Andreas » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:27 am

Re: Fragile

I don't understand how one can praise the Gastwirt Fragile. The vocals sound unreal; there is far too much air and treble around them. It sounds very similar to his attempt at Close To The Edge.

Is it established that the Atlantic Gold CD is the same as the standard Gastwirt remaster?

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MK
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Postby MK » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:22 am

Ok, I didn't mean people like YOU...
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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:37 pm

Andreas wrote:Re: Fragile

I don't understand how one can praise the Gastwirt Fragile. The vocals sound unreal; there is far too much air and treble around them. It sounds very similar to his attempt at Close To The Edge.


<shrug> I have the original CD (dull as dirt), the gold and silver Gastwirt remasters, the Japanese HDCD (louder than hell, plus dropouts and clipping), the DVD-A (ditto, but not clipping), and the Rhino CD (louder than hell, and clipping). And of course the old LP. The Gastwirt's the one I prefer. The only ones that really sounded like crap to me, though, were the original Atlantic CD and the HDCD.

visual comparison of the left channel waveforms of Roundabout (HDCD excluded)

www.m-ideas.com/sullivan/audition/roundabout.htm

and again, the non-level matched frequency profile comparison
www.m-ideas.com/sullivan/audition/roundabout_freq.htm
(the graph circa 13 kHz makes it clear why the original Atlantic CD sounds so dull compared ot the others)

Is it established that the Atlantic Gold CD is the same as the standard Gastwirt remaster?


Yes. They are digitally identical. They null out when you invert/mixpaste. Of course, to the Nightgort, that doesn't mean they're the same.

The best-sounding Close to the Edge (the title track) I've heard, by far, is an alternate mix/demo that appeared in the trading community in the last few years. Its clarity compared to the released version, is astonishing. Unfortunately the tape goes bad during the last half of the song.
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Postby Andreas » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:31 am

krabapple,

I am not sure if I interpret the waveforms correctly, but the old dull Atlantic Fragile CD (which was not mastered by Barry Diament) shows the most dynamics to me.

Take the track "Long Distance Turnaround", turn up the volume and concentrate von Jon's vocals. On the Atlantic CD, it sounds as if a real person is singing in the studio. On the Gastwirt, it sounds very unreal to me. Maybe it was meant that way, but in my opinion, Gastwirt overdid his mastering a bit. It might still be the best CD representation at this point, and I am interested what Mofi does with the tape.

Close To The Edge is a different case. The Barry Diament mastering is everything I expect from a recording: lifelike, balanced, warm, full, dynamic. And Barry didn't even have the master tape at his disposition.

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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:23 am

Looks can be deceiving. The actual difference in dynamic range (peak - avg RMS) between the old Atantic 'Roundabout and the Gastwirt, is quite small --negligable in the left chanel, 0.6 dB in the right. I would expect such DR differnce to be a *very* minor contributor relative to the EQ differences seen in the graph, in terms of what you hear. The EQ difference around 13 Khz, and in the bass, will have a far greater effect, IMO. As to what sounds 'real ' or not, that's entirely subjective. The mofi will be interesting because it will be the first to have nothing to do with Atlantic/Rhino and may therefore be a new digital transfer. I;ll be curious to see what it looks like circa 13 kHz.






Code: Select all


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Jeff T.
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Postby Jeff T. » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:33 am

I was a very serious young listener as a kid. I learned to know what the essential albums were even as a 10 to 14 year old.

Fragile was one of those albums you had to listen to, and you had to own it. Like Aqualung, Machine Head, Paranoid, Houses of the Holy, etc. Fragile along with CTTE is classic shit.

But somewhere I passed on to some things, newer things or more things I am less familiar with. Fragile sounds a bit dated and I've heard it too many times.

When I want to hear Yes, or see them even I tend to reach for the full show live at QPR 1975.

For a while the bootleg DVDs (made from the Japan LDs) were common as dirt on ebay. I did grab the Japanese laser disc of both volumes, and while it has some flaws, I can get into it. I like how Jon sings Long Distance Runaround live in 75.

Anyway, I think Yes put their foot down, or someone has, as you don't see those boots of that one any more. I think I paid 12.99 each for those legit LDs by Warner / Pioneer. They were a steal. I figured I would make my own DVDs from the real thing. It's nice when you by something music related and it does not go down in value. Or you got such a deal to begin with, you enjoy the purchase 5 years later or whatever it's been.

I saw the Yes 75 Relayer show in Las Vegas, no really.

here is a review of the QPR film, the last bootleger selling it had this in the ebay listing. He has now been kicked off ebay:

This is the only vintage Yes concert movie to feature a whole concert from beginning to end. It was filmed at the Queens Park Rangers Stadium at the 10th of May 1975 during the tour for "Relayer". It was still daylight when the finale from "Firebird Suite" is played, and the white curtain in front of the stage opened and allowed the BIG crowd (this was after all at an outdoor stadium) to see the Roger Dean-designed stage. The band, led by a white-dressed and bearded Jon Anderson, enters the stage and kicks right into "Sound Chaser" that opens the concert at a neck-breaking pace. This is followed by a good performance of "Close to the Edge", although considerably tamer than on "Yessongs". Patrick Moraz is interestingly enough constructing his own solos both here and on "Roundabout" later in the show instead of mimicking Wakeman's solos on those songs. The dry-ice smoke was as always filling the stage during "I Get Up, I Get Down", but the daylight partly spoils some of the effect here. Next out is a nice "To Be Over", and both this and "Sound Chaser" has to my knowledge never been performed live after this tour, making their appearances here very important and worthwhile for any Yes fan. It's also interesting to see Jon Anderson's development as a musician and stage persona since "Yessongs" two and a half years earlier. Now he often played rhythm guitar (that actually threatens to drown out everybody else in "To Be Over") and also bashes away on his set of various percussions during many of the instrumental passages. Next out is (drumroll!) "The Gates of Delirium", and to be able to see Yes perform this masterpiece in their golden era is a wet dream come true for me. The performance is great and energetic, and the goosebumps never fail to set in when the first shivering tone of "Soon" is heard toward the end. The acoustic set in the middle of the show features "Your Move", "Mood for a Day" and "Long Distance Runaround". Moraz also plays a piano-improvisation that features themes that later would surface in "Descent" and "Impressions (The Dream)" from his "i" album. I must however say that Howe performed "Clap" a lot better in "Yessongs" than what he does here. The second volume starts with "And You And I", and is yet another song that worked better in "Yessongs" than here. It may have something to do with Moraz who not quite manages to recreate Wakeman's fantastic walls of majestic sounds that are so important to this masterpiece. But it was now almost completely dark at this moment in the concert, allowing Roger Dean's stage to be fully revealed in all its glory, and it visually takes completely off during the performance of "Ritual". This version also includes a brief quote from "The Remembering", and I would guess that this also was one of the first times where the riff from "The Ancient" was incorporated in the instrumental part. The band then leaves the stage, but returns of course for the encore, and Moraz is very close to falling flat on his face when he comes back on stage! The encore is quite long, and includes "Roundabout", the probably best performance of "Sweet Dreams" that you'll ever see and finally "Yours Is No Disgrace" that has been surprisingly funked up by Anderson's rhythm guitar. Cool! Personally I don't think the performances here beat "Yessongs" when it comes to energy and tightness, but "Live 1975 at Q.P.R." is still essential viewing for anyone interested in classic progressive rock at its very best.

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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:04 pm

Jeff T. wrote:
When I want to hear Yes, or see them even I tend to reach for the full show live at QPR 1975.

For a while the bootleg DVDs (made from the Japan LDs) were common as dirt on ebay. I did grab the Japanese laser disc of both volumes, and while it has some flaws, I can get into it. I like how Jon sings Long Distance Runaround live in 75.


They were rereleased as DVDs in Japan. Rather pricey too something like $75 US *for each of the two discs*. AFAIK even the Japanese issues (LD and DVD) were never 'official' in the sense that Yes approved them; interviews with Steve Howe suggest he actively opposed them.
It seems this niche of Yes' back catalog is under someone else's control (e.g. Brian Lane).

The appalling stage monitor-like mix of the first few songs, where entire instruments disappear for long stretches of time, and the fact that the whole concert is in mono, really makes these a 'coulda been great' artifact. The DVDs reportedly have been repurposed to '5.1' but that has got to be just Pro Logic-type trickery.

(btw, as this has nothign to do with Elton John, and little to do with 'Fragile', I suggest this branch of the thread be moved elsewhere)
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Jeff T.
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Postby Jeff T. » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:03 pm

krabapple wrote:
Jeff T. wrote:
(btw, as this has nothign to do with Elton John, and little to do with 'Fragile', I suggest this branch of the thread be moved elsewhere)


As if being of the subject of Fragile would have made it at least half on topic. You crack me up!!!!

You were the one who really pushed the topic further off topic. That post on QPR was designed strickly to wake you up, a splash of cold water. You didn't catch that drift coming from me. Put down that crack pipe Krab!

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Jeff T.
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Postby Jeff T. » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:10 pm

Again, just pulling your leg.

I do like the QPR LDs, and you are right about the sound mix.

But it looks like the Japan DVDs are OOP. The ones I saw looked black market, with not a touch of gray