"Raw Power" Millennium Edition

Just what the name says.
Dob
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Postby Dob » Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:28 pm

Iggy mentioned that during the remix process it was the mastering engineer who objected to the levels of distortion ("I can't do this!"). I think that Iggy wanted everything "in the red" at every stage, and the engineers tried to explain to him that digital distortion is far less musical than analog (solid state, and definitely tube) distortion. In the end, they agreed on a compromise setting where the levels were backed off about 1/2 db, and even Iggy admitted that it sounded better.

I kinda wish I had my old CD to make another comparison, as it's been a long time. I gave it to a friend of mine, and I'm pretty sure he still has it. If I can burn a copy of it, I'll compare them again.
Both James Williamson and Ron Asheton always loathed the Bowie mix, but were forced to admit that Iggy's remix made the Bowie version sound acceptable...

Wow...I wasn't aware of this. Interesting.
Dob
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Ess Ay Cee Dee
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Postby Ess Ay Cee Dee » Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:31 pm

nt
Last edited by Ess Ay Cee Dee on Sun May 01, 2005 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Crummy Old Label Avatar » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:10 pm

Ess Ay Cee Dee wrote:I still have the original mixes of "Search and Destroy" and "Gimme Danger." Oddly enough, they're on the Iggy Nude and Rude compilation which was released after the RP remix became the standard version.

It may take me a while to get my shit together, but if anyone wants to do a comparison of the two I may be able to do a rip'n'FLAC job.


Count me in! I'm up for a comparison.



Perfect Sound Forever: What about the recent Raw Power re-issue? What did you think of that?

Ron Asheton: Don Fleming said to me "When you heard that remix that they did, you're gonna say that you love that original David Bowie mix of Raw Power!" When I finally hear it, I call up Don and say "I really love that original David Bowie mix of Raw Power!" It's the gospel truth. All Iggy did was take the smoothness off James' guitar and made it sound jerky and horrible. He put EVERY FUCKING MOAN AND GROAN AND WORD he said back in the tracks and that's his mix. I went "HUH? Oh, man..."

Other people were saying "If they could only remix that record." Now, when they all hear it, they say the same thing. "I really love that original David Bowie mix of Raw Power!" I swear to God it's true.


http://www.furious.com/perfect/ronasheton4.html


Ron Asheton: I remember Don Fleming...we were talking about it, and he goes, "Yeah, Iggy's mixing Raw Power," and I'm going, "Oh, yeah, it'll probably be great" (being sarcastic). Don Fleming goes, "You know what? When Iggy's Raw Power mix comes out, I'll bet you're gonna go -- we always used to say how bad the original David Bowie mix of Raw Power was -- Fleming's going, "When you hear Iggy's mix, I guarantee you're gonna say, 'Man, remember that great mix that David Bowie did?" So I heard it, I got the advance copy from his manager, and listened to it. Then I called Fleming and I'm going, "Gee, Don, I just listened to Iggy's mix of Raw Power. Man, I sure loved that old David Bowie mix. Was it ever great. "

But basically, all that Iggy did was take all the smoothness and all the effects off James (Williamson)'s guitar, so his leads sound really abrupt and stilty and almost clumsy, and he just put back every single grunt, groan, and word he ever said on the whole fuckin' soundtrack. He just totally restored everything that was cut out of him in the first mix, and I thought, Damn, I really did like the old mix better.

Actually, I didn't even read the liner notes, the little cover story in the booklet. Then Larry Steele calls up from Atlanta and goes, "Yeah, did you get that Raw Power thing?" I went, "Yeah, Iggy's manager did send it like he promised, the real copy and that was pretty nice of him." And he goes, "Have you opened it up yet?" And I go, "Well, no, I've been just looking at the little press kit thing." And he goes, "Well, uh, are you sittin' down?" and I go, "Huh? Well, yeah." Then he goes, "Let me read you something," so he starts to read the part where Iggy goes, "The Ashetons? (Hahahahaha) They couldn't put a home aquarium together without me. " Awww, man, I was so fuckin' mad, because I'd just spoken with him, and here he's slagged us again.


http://www.i94bar.com/ints/asheton2.html


Q: Have you heard the mix of Raw Power that Iggy did?

James Williamson: Yeah.

Q: How do you compare that with the Bowie mix?

James Williamson: I personally think it sucked. I gotta tell ya that I like the IDEA of what he tried to do, and I talked to him about it, and there's a lot of factors involved, but at the time, none of us liked Bowie's mix, but given everything, Iggy, when he went in to mix it, he found out that the guy who had recorded it originally had not gotten a lot of level on certain things, like the bass and drums, especially the bass, so he didn't have a lot to work with. Then Iggy, on his mix, he left a bunch of guitar stuff on there that probably shouldn't have been left in, and just odds and ends. Bowie's not my favorite guy, but I have to say that overall, I think he did a pretty good job.

Q: The way it seems to me, the Bowie mix emphasizes vocals and lead guitar, while the Iggy mix emphasizes RHYTHM guitar.

James Williamson: Yeah, maybe. Just trying to leave some stuff in there that he thought should've been in, but I would've liked it to have been a better-recorded session in general. Then there [would have been] a lot more he could do with it. But it is what it is.


http://www.i94bar.com/ints/james1.html
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Dob
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Postby Dob » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:56 pm

Ron Asheton wrote:All Iggy did was...put EVERY FUCKING MOAN AND GROAN AND WORD he said back in the tracks and that's his mix. I went "HUH? Oh, man..."

Even if I hadn't heard the remix, that would strike me as a rather odd (and minor) complaint. I didn't have that reaction upon hearing it, but I certainly don't know the album as well as Ron does.

James Williamson wrote:...the guy who had recorded it originally had not gotten a lot of level on certain things, like the bass and drums, especially the bass, so he (Iggy) didn't have a lot to work with.

I don't understand this. Didn't the bass and drums have their own track (tracks) on the multis? This was a remix, not a remaster of the two track.
Then Iggy, on his mix, he left a bunch of guitar stuff on there that probably shouldn't have been left in, and just odds and ends. Just trying to leave some stuff in there that he thought should've been in, but I would've liked it to have been a better-recorded session in general.

What I'm hearing from these guys is that they thought Bowie's mix was more complimentary because of what he chose to leave in and leave out -- which I'll concede, even though Ron and James aren't in total agreement themselves. However, I find it interesting that Ron didn't mention the sound at all, and James suggested that (because of the poor recording) the sound differences between the two mixes are inconsequential.
Dob

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Postby Crummy Old Label Avatar » Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:45 am

Forced myself to listen to the remixed Raw Power -- and forced is the operative word. Jesus, it's worse than I remembered. It's literally painful to listen to. Everything is harsh and grating. The bass guitar is far-off distant sludge. Overall, it's actually much weaker in impact than the original mix. Everything is razor-thin, sharp and piercing. "Balls"? I think not.

This remix is an utter piece of shit that truly does make the Bowie mix sound like heaven. Iggy should never be allowed to enter a control room or mastering suite ever again.
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krabapple
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Postby krabapple » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:40 pm

FWIW there's a few at gemm.com...don't know if any of them are the original CD.

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Postby chrischross » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:23 pm

krabapple wrote:FWIW there's a few at gemm.com...don't know if any of them are the original CD.

GEMM link


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Postby lukpac » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:36 pm

As well as the URL tags in PHPBB.
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Dob
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Postby Dob » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:04 pm

Crummy Old Label Avatar wrote:It's literally painful to listen to...harsh...sharp...piercing...

Iggy thanks you for your compliments on his remix.
"Balls"? I think not.

Well, your descriptions are pretty close to my definition of "balls." Except for...
The bass guitar is far-off distant sludge. Overall, it's actually much weaker in impact than the original mix.

Are you saying the bass is actually better on Bowie's mix? I don't recall hearing any bass on the Bowie mix CD at all.

As far as "impact" goes, the Bowie mix always struck me as as homogenized and watered down...almost as if Bowie was trying to make the Stooges more palatable (i.e., sell more records). That is totally the wrong approach IMO.
This remix...truly does make the Bowie mix sound like heaven.

I think that Iggy was going more for "hell" than "heaven."
Iggy should never be allowed to enter a control room or mastering suite ever again.

Keep in mind that he *was* there when Bowie did the mix, and Bowie most likely took Iggy's suggestions seriously. However, if your point is that Iggy should never have the "final say" and needs to be kept under control, I would agree...and so (I suspect) would Iggy. He admits that his first (1973) attempts at mixing Raw Power resulted in progressively more extreme versions (which he blames on not enough time between recording and mixing to allow for perspective), and he also admits that the album cover, which he originally hated, is now a classic.
Dob

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MK
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Postby MK » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:58 pm

Anybody have the "No Thanks!" punk box set? I heard the mastering is DigiPrep but with a strong dose of compression (think Television remasters). It has a track or two of the new mixes from the current "Raw Power," maybe they sound better on "No Thanks!" (even with the compression, it may be less harsh than what was done to the current CD).
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Postby MK » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:01 pm

Oh, BTW, as bad as the new CD may sound - and again, I think that could've been fixed with a lot less compression - there's NO FUCKING way the Bowie mix is ever going to grow on me. It just sucks period.
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Postby Rspaight » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:01 pm

I've got that box -- I'll post up a couple mp3 snippets when I get a chance.

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Postby krabapple » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:16 pm

lukpac wrote:As well as the URL tags in PHPBB.


You know I use them often. I was just being lazier than normal.
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Postby Crummy Old Label Avatar » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:43 am

Update time.

I've obtained copies of the Columbia CD, the 1989 UK Castle Communications CD, as well as the Bomp! Rough Power CD. I've been living with these for a little while now. Here's how I see it:

US Columbia CD: A faithful sonic reproduction of the original US vinyl. I don't think this CD is "inferior" sounding at all. I think one can safely say that this is a perfectly adequate flat transfer.

UK Castle Communications CD: This one does indeed sound slightly thinner than than the Columbia disc, though not by much. Still, I'd give the US disc the edge.

Rough Power: Raw Power from the Twilight Zone. Bootleg sound quality. This disc consists of an earlier, pre-Bowie mix of 7 of the 8 album tracks (no "Shake Appeal," for some weird reason), a Detroit radio broadcast from 1972 that features even different mixes (and an unreleased cut from the sessions), and three weirdly-mixed acetates. If this featured better sound quality, I'd say that the mix found here is the best of the lot. Wonder if the master reel exists in the Sony vaults? But then I quite enjoy the rough sound of this CD -- Raw Power's second mind, as they say.

So there you have it. Thanks to you-know-who-you-are for the Columbia disc!
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Postby damianm » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:34 am

I hope I haven't posted this already, and I know some of you don't care for vinyl, but I got this sometime back and I'm pretty happy with it. The vinyl on my copy is quiet, and I'd think that for $6 you can do a lot worse.

(No I don't work for them)