Rolling Stones hybrid intrigue

[krabapple]

Are you saying the DCC has audible *gaps* in between the edits? Holy shit.

Yep. There's two spots. The countoff and about 3/4 in. If you're not going to edit the countoff onto the beginning, then why include it at all?

I've been listening to the Thick as a Brick album in various formats since the early 70's, and I've never heard any where there *was* a countoff. So I'm guessing SH just for fun, included something 'new' from the original masters, for his remaster.

No excuse for a gap 3/4 in , either. Hoffman's Luddite aversion to digital
splicing is ridiculous.

The most recent version (from several years ago) claims to be from the OMTs...I wonder if it's possible to tell if they're from the same source tapes as Hoffman's version. THis would require, I think, comparing three versions: the original CD (or Mofi), teh remaster, and the DCC.

[krabapple]

IPOOCOA results for disc one of Hot Rocks SACD hybrid (CD layer) matrix
18771-9667-2-1 HD 2/18771-9667-2-1 CD 3
(there's also a fricking *tiny* number on there that I'll need a magnifier to make out)

Play with Fire
As Tears Go By
Mother's Little Helper
19th Nervous Breakdown
Get Off My Cloud

all flatline when invert-mixpasted R to L channel

[JWB]

I had the same results. Here's my matrix:

18771-9667-2-1 HD 1/18771-9667-2-1 CD 3

[Jelly]

I don't know if this is important but my More Hot Rocks hybrid (bought recently, in Europe) cover says printed in EU, discs however are "made in Japan".

Also, my 12 x 5 (inaugural edition) hasn't got cd-text (cd layer).

[Xenu]

Odd. I feel like these were made so edge-of-your-seat that all sorts of manufacturing oddities snuck in (I mean, c'mon...how does a whole fucking batch of Singles Collection Disc 3 playing the wrong album sneak out of the pressing plant? Does anybody LISTEN to these things?).

While some here may view this as morally reprehensible, I've posted a thread over at sh.tv about this. Hopefully, we'll get an idea of any pattern that may exist.

[Crummy Old Label Avatar]

Question: In order to achieve "proper" OOPSing, do both channels have to be identical in volume? Let's say you have a stereo WAV file with each individual channel carrying the exact same signal. Both are equal in volume. Applying OOPS to this should result in a cancelled-out signal, correct? Now, say you raise the level of the left channel and cut the level of the right channel. Will it still cancel out in the same manner as it did when the levels were equal?

In other words, does a volume imbalance between channels affect the resulting OOPS signal or not?

Second question: is there an *audible* difference between the "properly cancelled out" version and the "slight stereo" version? By *audible* I mean can this be reliably ABX'd by anyone?

Third question: is it possible that these differences are not due to the discs themselves but rather the digital extraction method and drive used to perform said extraction?

Congrats on your SHtv post, Xenu. I'm sure that the NightGorf and Lee S will clear this up in no time flat.

[JWB]

Question one: Yes, it makes a difference if the channels are imbalanced

Question two: The difference is audible at least on the track "As Tears Go By" which has some strange stereo anomalies on the version that doesn't cancel out, which can be clearly seen by OOPSing. The true mono version seems to play straight through without any of the problems.

Question three: Yeah, probably.

[Andreas]

Question three: Yeah, probably.

Do you really mean that the found differences are caused by different disc drives or different extraction methods? That is how I understood COLA's question, and I would say, this is not possible.

[lukpac]

Question: In order to achieve "proper" OOPSing, do both channels have to be identical in volume? Let's say you have a stereo WAV file with each individual channel carrying the exact same signal. Both are equal in volume. Applying OOPS to this should result in a cancelled-out signal, correct? Now, say you raise the level of the left channel and cut the level of the right channel. Will it still cancel out in the same manner as it did when the levels were equal?

In other words, does a volume imbalance between channels affect the resulting OOPS signal or not?

Things won't cancel out 100%. But you'd still get a steady result if the channels are otherwise identical. If the channels weren't identical, on the other hand, you'd get fluctuations in volume and/or other stereo artifacts.

Third question: is it possible that these differences are not due to the discs themselves but rather the digital extraction method and drive used to perform said extraction?

Even when not using EAC, I've only ever had issues where things didn't extract properly a few times, and I don't think any were on new discs. I'd consider the notion *highly* unlikely.

[Phil Elliott]

As Xenu has mentioned Hot Rocks/MHR over at SH.TV:

Where hiss is mentioned, it is extremely quiet varying around the -85db mark. All discs are hybrids.

Hot Rocks:

Disc1
Made in EU

Inner matrix:
50488979/UNIVERSAL 882312-2 D 01

Outer matrix:
50488980/UNIVERSAL 882312-2 01

IFPI 0783 on centre hub

Disc2
Made in EU

Inner matrix:
50488993/UNIVERSAL 882313-2 D 02

Outer matrix:
50488994/UNIVERSAL 882313-2 01

IFPI 0783 on centre hub



Play With Fire
Brief (literally milliseconds) hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely until hiss appearing at 2.10

As Tears Go By
Brief hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely until hiss appearing at 2.38

Get Off My Cloud
Hiss throughout

Mother's Little Helper
Brief hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely until hiss at 2.44

19th Nervous Breakdown
Brief hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely until hiss at nearly 3.53



More Hot Rocks:

Disc1
Made In Japan

Inner matrix:
882-314-2 CD 1 IFPI L275

Outer matrix:
882-314-2 HD 2

45TC on centre hub

Disc2
Made In Japan

Inner matrix:
882-315-2 CD 1 IFPI L275

Outer matrix:
882-315-2 HD 1

45TC on centre hub


Tell Me
General stereo artifacts (stereo transfer), grainy pops, Left channel dips 3 1/4 seconds in. Left channel slightly louder. Big dropout at 54 secs, major wobble in stereo.

Not Fade Away
Almost cancels out - only artifacts are strange low frequency rumbles near/around the 95/100 Hz mark. Right channel gets slightly louder during fade out. Only noticable through OOPs / phase meter.

The Last Time
Brief hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely until hiss appearing at 3.37

Good Times, Bad Times
Similar to Tell Me, this is riddled with pops, general stereo artifacts. During OOPsing, you can hear someone shouting during the guitar intro (maybe right hand channel). Eh? Phase meter shows right channel getting slightly louder during vocals and harmonica.

I'm Free
Brief hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely until hiss at 2.21

Have You Seen Your Mother Baby ...
Hiss throughout, music cancels out completely until 2.22, right channel suddenly becomes slightly louder

Fortune Teller
Pop at beginning, then cancels out completely throughout.

Poison Ivy version 1
Very tiny click at beginning, then cancels out completely throughout.

Everybody Needs Somebody To Love
Brief hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely untill bang on 5.00.

Come On
Pop at beginning, then cancels out completely throughout.

Money
Cancels out completely throughout.

Bye Bye Johnnie
Brief hiss at beginning, then cancels out completely until hiss fades in at around 2.07

Poison Ivy version 2
Artifact shown on meters at beginning (barely audible), then cancels out completely throughout.

Long Long While
Cancels out completely throughout.

[Xenu]

Oh, *wow*.

So what do we think this means?

[krabapple]

Question: In order to achieve "proper" OOPSing, do both channels have to be identical in volume? Let's say you have a stereo WAV file with each individual channel carrying the exact same signal. Both are equal in volume. Applying OOPS to this should result in a cancelled-out signal, correct? Now, say you raise the level of the left channel and cut the level of the right channel. Will it still cancel out in the same manner as it did when the levels were equal?

In other words, does a volume imbalance between channels affect the resulting OOPS signal or not?

Absolutely...the channels only cancel if one waveform is an *exact* mirror image of the other, after being inverted (and then mix-pasted onto the other). This doesn't occur if one has a different amplitude from the other.

Second question: is there an *audible* difference between the "properly cancelled out" version and the "slight stereo" version? By *audible* I mean can this be reliably ABX'd by anyone?

If the remainder is louder than 0.1 dB above silence, there's a decent chance it's audible, and therefore ABXable from total silence. oOf course other factors matter too --e.g. the frequency characteristics of the remainder.

Third question: is it possible that these differences are not due to the discs themselves but rather the digital extraction method and drive used to perform said extraction?

Not if one can get cancellation for *some* tracks but not others, using the exact same digital extraction. Though I suppose if a lot of error EAC correction happened on one track but not the other, there could be a difference in the bits...??

[Andreas]

Though I suppose if a lot of error EAC correction happened on one track but not the other, there could be a difference in the bits...??

Does EAC indicate if exact error correction was possible?

Mathematically, the data received from the disc would have enough information for that information. Either the error is within a certain margin, and then the data can be corrected 100%. Or there are too many erroneous bits, and interpolation has to be used. I wonder if or how EAC indicates if interpolation was used. Or if it even uses it.

[Rspaight]

EAC clearly tells you if "there were errors." It's entirely common for the error correction indicators to light up during a rip, but the end report indicate no errors. So I assume that if the end report says there were errors, then the rip contains bits that don't match the disc.

Ryan