Membership Drive Underway

[Xenu]

Remember, Bob Lovely told me to "move on." Apparently, they're content with only having one of us back.

[Ed Bishop]

Roger McGuinn is off the 'net?

Gosh, I hope not. That's news to me...helluva picker, don't you think?

D, great to see you haven't lost your edge. Any rumors of you mellowing in your old age are obviously false.

Just a few things. I can't address your suspension directly, since I don't know what you did to merit it, except that arguing with a certain Gort would likely do the trick. PM or no PM, getting into fights with Gorts--or any Mod, anywhere--isn't conducive to a long future on a board.

About the *hero worship* thing some of you seem fixated with....well, gee, how surprising some folks actually like Steve Hoffman! Shocking...
Put it this way: if you go into the Macca or George Harrison boards, should you really expect members going around, all over the place, saying, "Paulie sucks" or "I hate George's music."? If so, why would they bother being on those boards in the first place? I would expect a Macca board to attract diehard fans of his music, not detractors. Yet even so, you can debate the merits of his music without fear of reprisal--at least from Mods; members, another matter, but that's the chance you take if you have sharp, original opinions, however dubious they might actually be.

As for disagreeing with Steve...about what, exactly? He's the sonic expert, not me. I don't presume to know the nuts and bolts; I only know when something sounds *off* referenced to what other sources I have for any given piece of material. When Luke argued in favor of the import of AFTER-MATH, I agreed with him, because I have the references and he is right. Period. As for NR, well, if used judiciously, it can be a benefit, problem is, so few seem to know how to use it. What's more, a fair argument can be made that, in general, it's unnecessary. I've heard enough of Norberg's work with it to know he should never be allowed to use it, EVER. Compression? That's a personal philosophy. Little Walter probably uses it to recapture the sound of the old 45's & 78's, as close to that standard as possible. Steve prefers the master tape sound, not necessarily what the records sounded like. Let's just say I prefer his 24K HITS! over 30#1 HITS, for reasons listening will make flamingly obvious.

More to the point, the high quality of Steve's work points to a simple fact: he knows what he's doing. This is not hero worship, but reality. Yes, there are others out there who do great work; nobody said there wasn't! But if the Forum does get fixated on the brilliance of Steve, why would you expect otherwise? His name is on the door. If you know of any shitty work he's done, that's a list I'd like to see. I won't hold my breath waiting for it, though....

ED

[Ed Bishop]

Remember, Bob Lovely told me to "move on." Apparently, they're content with only having one of us back.

First, why bring Bob into this? He wasn't the one who suspended you, was he? As for 'moving on,' well, why can't you? Why insist on stewing on this? The best revenge, anywhere you go, is an argument superior to those who disagree with you. Once you develop one, you put your opponents on the defensive, which is where you want them, and which is what Luke is so good at. That doesn't mean he's always right, but it does make the playing field much more even. Your tendency to vent out in the open--in highly sarcastic fashion, I might add--is likely what got you suspended. That, and arguing with the one Gort you can't argue with. Of course I've no idea whether you argued or attacked; only you know the answer to that one. If the latter, well...everyone, whether you like them personally or not, is entitled to some modicum of respect, provided they return the same to you. When they don't that's another deal entirely....

ED

[lukpac]

About the *hero worship* thing some of you seem fixated with....well, gee, how surprising some folks actually like Steve Hoffman! Shocking...
Put it this way: if you go into the Macca or George Harrison boards, should you really expect members going around, all over the place, saying, "Paulie sucks" or "I hate George's music."?

I think you're missing the point. Nobody is suggesting that board be filled with "you suck, Steve" posts. But come on - he's just another guy. One who happens to do a good job mastering. You don't think...

"Steve, what did you have for breakfast?"

"If Steve said it, it must be true."

"Where do I send baby gifts?"

"Yes, that German pressing I've never heard *must* be the best version out there, since it's a flat transfer, even though, er, uh, another CD that's also a flat transfer sounds very different."

...*isn't* hero worship?

As for disagreeing with Steve...about what, exactly? He's the sonic expert, not me.

That's what I'm talking about. "Steve is the expert, so why disagree with him?" There have been a number of times were Steve has been *adamant* about something, until I pointed out (usually in private) that he was clearly wrong. That particular topic was usually forgotten about, OR, my observations were forgotten after awhile.

More to the point, the high quality of Steve's work points to a simple fact: he knows what he's doing. This is not hero worship, but reality.

See above. It goes far beyond "Steve, I love all of your mastering!"

[Sound]

Ed,
Stop worrying about other people's personalities. ("Highly sarcastic") Maybe he wants to be sarcastic. Maybe he comes by it honestly. This ain't SH*TV where people complain about George Harrison because he's so cynical. Maybe he earned the right to be cynical. (Don't cha think?) It's none of your business how he or anyone else, chooses to act.
No young punk (gort , gort wannabe, AA moderator, nauga, or otherwise) tells me what to do, or how to act. Sorry.
Authority afixation is unhealthy. I come by my feeling honestly, that's all you should care about, or dwell on. Heck, I might even be different than you. That's not neccasarily a bad thing.
The whole gort thing has gotten way out of hand. Now the site is nothing more than a very small clique of a few 1,000+ post (and counting!) posters. It's a numbers race. Meaningless to the 'outsiders' though. Just as are your 'What kind of personality' opinions.

[Ed Bishop]

Sound,

Good morning, I see you're in full lecturing mode; thanks, but I'll pass. You're the sort of troll I flick off like dandruff on the lapel. You were way out of your league at SH--I note you are no longer on the members list, curious, that--and you're faring no better here. Arrogance and ill temper are not good attributes to have on any board, and you seem to have a bit of both.

As for D, he and I hash out our issues, and don't need help from third parties...though it is fun when Luke jumps in. Both lads are feisty, a necessary ingredient when dealing in off-topic issues-oriented threads, especially.

The numbers issue is a non-issue. Counting that stuff happens on a lot of boards, just a way to be friendly. I have a lot, but I don't post for numbers. I post because I'm enjoying myself. No law against that, is there?

ED

[lukpac]

You're the sort of troll I flick off like dandruff on the lapel.

Ed, just because someone disagrees with you in a colorful fashion it doesn't mean they are a troll. Sound quite obviously isn't one.

[Ed Bishop]

"Steve is the expert, so why disagree with him?" There have been a number of times were Steve has been *adamant* about something, until I pointed out (usually in private) that he was clearly wrong. That particular topic was usually forgotten about, OR, my observations were forgotten after awhile.

Well, you say he was wrong. And to be fair, he doesn't have to be right all the time--nobody is.

See above. It goes far beyond "Steve, I love all of your mastering!"

Well, shoot the gang for actually liking the guy.

It hasn't escaped my notice--or his, apparently--that you guys are still lurking around. For a bunch who continually take shots at the forum, you seem to spend enough time keeping track of what's going on over there. If I didn't know better, I'd swear, despite the denials, some of you miss the action. Well, to play in the major leagues, you gotta put the uniform on and abide by the clubhouse rules.

I still wish you and D would reconsider. You certainly have nothing to lose.

ED

[Grant]

I deleted my previous post on my topic. I won't delete this one.

Could it have all been handled better? Certainly. But like I said: their house, their rules, which have never been unreasonable.

Have never...? Have you been listening? Where do the rules imply that private conversation with a gort can get you banned?

The fact remains, however, that D's outburts would have gotten him sacked at a place like HTF a lot faster than at SH.

Your use of "outbursts" is frankly somewhat disingeuous and implies you know a heck of a lot more about me than you do. Forums are not necessarily an indication of one's....oh, inner state of being. I've been known to call people flaccid while *perfectly under the control of my higher faculties*, thanks.

At HTF, it doesn't take much to get banned; I've seen it happen too many times. At Macca, it takes a lot, maybe too long. At SH they want everyone to get along, which is not unreasonable.

Of course it's unreasonable! Have you *ever* seen *any* internet medium where everyone gets along all the time? Have you ever used Usenet? Have you ever used IRC? Enforcing "nice" means that personalities are stunted, and it engenders a whole lot of asskissing and hero worship. Which Steve might as well want...heck, it's certainly improving his stock by leaps and bounds (people are namechecking him in polls..."All hail Steve Hoffman". Thank god Roger McGuinn got off the internet when he did, or else the same crew might be offering to pluck his Rickenbacker daily)

I can't argue with the attitude that if you have a beef, don't bitch out in the open--that's what PM's are for.

Unless the moderator doesn't like you, because then you get banned for PMs.

Once it gets personal, you always wind up the loser. I've learned to stay out of shitty threads that turn ugly, unless a friend is getting it, then I jump in, but always as detached as possible--getting angry does no good.

Anger can be cathartic. Besides, it's just the internet...you have to operate on the principle that the people you're talking to know it's just an audio forum. And that they're not, say, psychotic stalkers who will hunt you down because you destroyed their UDI vs UDII fantasies.

The line between civil debate and ugly rancor isn't a fine one--you know when it's been crossed, and at most forums--not just Steve's--it simply isn't tolerated for long.

Your authoritative use of "most" intrigues me. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

So we're discounting, say, USEnet again?

Don't know about you, but I'd rather just have a lively talk than a vicious one. That Steve doesn't want that kind of shit is to his credit. He only asks that we not dump on each other, and I haven't any problem with that.

He also asks that we don't disagree, ever, and that we don't disagree with the gorts, ever, especially not in private.

The ban on poltical discussion there is hardly unique; HTF bans it, too. That siad, there are plenty of places to go--including here--when we want to hash out GW's latest line of bullshit.

IIRC, the problem wasn't sh.tv's ban on political threads; the problem was the ridiculous "threadcrapping" rule (aka the "don't disagree" rule) that was trotted out frequently to stop criticism. Those lists of "Gee, remember in the good old days when you could chug lead paint and sodomize seventy strangers in nightclubs and get shot in the eye with BB guns and drink sewage-infested water and be crippled by polio but still be cheerful and aren't kids today spoiled and horrible and they don't like vinyl and they don't really like music and I wish we would just kill them all KILL THEM ALL TAKING MY SOCIAL SECURITY AWAY I WANT MY PENSION YOU MOTHERFUCKERS" were kinda insulting to us under-30 crowd. But we couldn't disagree, because the forum is fantasyland.

But politics is for the thick-skinned only; I've seen more than a few wilt under close scrutiny. I always try to leave my temper at the door. Better that way.

Again, difference between temper and passion. I'm never angry. Just bitter.

But the SH board gives off pretty good vibes these days, something to remember if you ever get an itch to return. More than a few of the veterans miss having you around. I understand why you don't want to go back, but members don't set policy. And SH policy isn't restrictive or unreasonable. If it were, I wouldn't be there.

A few points:

a) sh.tv does not give off good vibes. Have you seen/read/heard of the Stepford Wives? It kinda feels like that. Party line! Make everything look good for the suits who *might be browsing*. All noise reduction is bad! All compression is bad! There was a good a few weeks back who was asking if he "could" use NR/digital compression in his home recordings. If you're a hobbyest, that's all you have, and some people seem to forget that
i) Compression, as "We" dislike it, is a post-production mastering phenomenon, and not a recording phenomenon, and
ii) We don't like post-production NR because hiss is inherent in the tape medium, but digital setups are variable, adn some will produce noise, which can build up, so get rid of it

but anyway, the reaction was "NO! DON'T USE IT!" and Steve told him to get an analogue compressor, and it was just "why?"

b) Hero worship. It's irritating. Steve might be a great guy (he's never been particularly nasty to me--that was the Gorts' business--but we've never really communicated one on one), but hero worship is always disturbing. And you get lots lots lots of that there.

c) Oh fuck. I'm not spelling this out for you.


And guess what, Ed? If it were unreasonable, of *course* you'd be there. I don't see you disagreeing with Steve when he asserts that audio taken from a CD via ripping sounds "naturally inferior" to other sources. I don't see you bringing up the tests Luke's performed to gently remind Dave that, scientifically, he seems to be living in a fantasyworld. That's the stuff I'd do, because I was on that forum to discuss things and argue things and not to feel good about myself.

Presumably, that's why I'm banned and you're not. They don't seem to miss me. I don't really miss them. But I still dislike that things went this way.

Hey D,

I've done some of those things on the sh forum. I've disagreed with Steve's views, I supported using NR on your home DAW, and other things. I have mentioned that I don't care for some of Steve's work. I do not march in lockstep with most of the people there.

Why do I suddenly feel like a "token"?

[Ed Bishop]

Hey D,

I've done some of those things on the sh forum. I've disagreed with Steve's views, I supported using NR on your home DAW, and other things. I have mentioned that I don't care for some of Steve's work. I do not march in lockstep with most of the people there.

Why do I suddenly feel like a "token"?

You're not. For one thing, there is no harm--or problem--in arguing the fine points of mastering with Steve, if you wish. He has the advantage of experience at the professional end, however, and his track record speaks for itself. I am curious, though, as to which work of Steve's you don't care for. I haven't heard even a mediocre mastering of his to date, though he's conceded there are some things he would do over if he had his time back again. That's the kind of honesty you don't get elsewhere.

The problem here is simpler: the same guys gnawing on the same old bone until their gums are bloody. Now, if you give me a choice between being on the outside pissing in rather than on the inside pissing out, I'll take the latter every time. D's hassle was twofold: a personality issue with Jeff, on the one hand; and his own tendency to lose his temper out in the open, on the other. He calls it bitterness, not anger. Well, perception is everything in life, and the perception was he was getting to be a loose cannon too often, spouting diatribes and invective, and allowed himself to be baited by fools. Whose fault is that? SH Forums? You don't get away with that in too many boards of that nature anymore. The rest of the board doesn't want them around, and if they don't, neither does the owner or Mods. Steve wants his site to have a certain atmosphere, and that's what he's going to get, whether anybody likes it or not. Those who piss in his pool are going to get the boot.

As for the private words with a certain Gort, what D's not telling is what is very likely: he used a few of the magic words or phrases that get you suspended. That, or he disrespected Jeff in some way; piss on a Gort and what do you expect to receive? Being angry or bitter over a situation is one thing; crapping on someone, public or private, is quite another. Private messaging is not carte blanche for invective and rancor; indeed, on most boards that would be considered harrassment and could also get you tossed outright.

And another thing: no mainstream board is tailored to suit individuals; it's tailored to reflect the hosts/owner's desires, every time. As members, we can push the envelope a little, but only so much. And I stand by my comment that there's nothing demonstrably negative or wrong going on over at SH, a 'Stepford Wives' mentality; that's the view of people on the outside looking in. I'm sorry they're disgruntled and feel they've been mistreated; but rare is the suspension or banishment that isn't warranted. That doesn't mean it's always fair; fairness has nothing to do with it, never will. I've seen guys and gals on other boards get tossed for being part of a fight, even though they didn't instigate it. SH Forums is not a zero tolerance gig like HTF; they offer plenty of latitude if you don't take things personally and act as if the place exists just for you and that the rules don't apply. You gotta play ball, or they take the ball away. Nothing unique there.

ED

[Rspaight]

Would this be a good time to point out that Steve's mastering of Metallica's "Ride The Lightning" makes my girlfriend horny?

Ryan

[Patrick M]

"Death in the air
Strapped in the electric chair
This can't be happening to me"

gets 'em every time, eh?

[Xenu]

You're not. For one thing, there is no harm--or problem--in arguing the fine points of mastering with Steve, if you wish. He has the advantage of experience at the professional end, however, and his track record speaks for itself. I am curious, though, as to which work of Steve's you don't care for. I haven't heard even a mediocre mastering of his to date, though he's conceded there are some things he would do over if he had his time back again. That's the kind of honesty you don't get elsewhere.

Well, we don't know that...I'm unaware of many other mastering engineers with their own fan clubs^H^H^H^Hbulletin boards.

The problem here is simpler: the same guys gnawing on the same old bone until their gums are bloody. Now, if you give me a choice between being on the outside pissing in rather than on the inside pissing out, I'll take the latter every time. D's hassle was twofold: a personality issue with Jeff, on the one hand; and his own tendency to lose his temper out in the open, on the other. He calls it bitterness, not anger.

And you call it a "personality issue." My issue wasn't with his personality; my issue was/is (just like our love was/is!) with his love of forum power over actually making it an informative, dynamic place. I.e. when I asked him why nobody particularly cared that GORT NO. 1 had been a total jerk, his response was something like "Well, you clearly deserved it, because we make all decisions by comittee and besides, you got banned, so you're a bad person and you must be pondering what you did wrong."

As for "gnawing at the same bone"...well, this is a sticking point. A big sticking point. What the hell was I doing for a year and a half helping out, anyway?

[quote
Well, perception is everything in life, and the perception was he was getting to be a loose cannon too often, spouting diatribes and invective, and allowed himself to be baited by fools.
[/quote]

"Baited by fools" implies a level of intent that I certainly don't think was there. And this "loose cannon" thing seems to imply that I went around looking for random people to get offended by. Which isn't true.

Besides, I thought it was wildly entertaining.

Whose fault is that? SH Forums? You don't get away with that in too many boards of that nature anymore. The rest of the board doesn't want them around, and if they don't, neither does the owner or Mods.

Keep it with "owner or mods." Who knows what the rest of the board wants?

Steve wants his site to have a certain atmosphere, and that's what he's going to get, whether anybody likes it or not. Those who piss in his pool are going to get the boot.

I understand that. I agree with it. My problem is when that salient fact is misrepresented into something else, or worse, when "morality" is assigned to not being able to lockstep.

As for the private words with a certain Gort, what D's not telling is what is very likely: he used a few of the magic words or phrases that get you suspended.

Which are what? "I disagree with you?" "No, I will not lick your shoes?"

My PMs were described as "hurling profanity." NOt really. I know how to hurl profanity, and I also know how to swear in PMs to moderators. I believe I was using the second skill set that time around.

That, or he disrespected Jeff in some way; piss on a Gort and what do you expect to receive? Being angry or bitter over a situation is one thing; crapping on someone, public or private, is quite another. Private messaging is not carte blanche for invective and rancor; indeed, on most boards that would be considered harrassment and could also get you tossed outright.

Well, if it was harassment. If it was exchange that I was using to determine why a post that I considered fairly informative was pulled...but I've been over this, so I'm not going over it again.

And another thing: no mainstream board is tailored to suit individuals; it's tailored to reflect the hosts/owner's desires, every time.

Maybe you should stop by ateaseweb.com sometime.

but rare is the suspension or banishment that isn't warranted. That doesn't mean it's always fair; fairness has nothing to do with it, never will.

So which one is this?

I've seen guys and gals on other boards get tossed for being part of a fight, even though they didn't instigate it. SH Forums is not a zero tolerance gig like HTF; they offer plenty of latitude if you don't take things personally and act as if the place exists just for you and that the rules don't apply.

Both of which I clearly did.

For the record: I still read the board. Because sometimes interesting things are posted. Yes, Steve clearly knows this, because I have a big, fat university IP that I can't exactly cloak, but whatever, at no juncture am I trying to be stealthy (it's interesting to note that the initial level of "banned-ment" kept us from even reading the forums while signed in, so we had to undergo a Great Cookie Purge--which was hideous and awful and was like a potato famine only less European--to even browse the site...if they could block by IP, they probably would've by now) or to pretend I'm not there.

[Xenu]

First, why bring Bob into this? He wasn't the one who suspended you, was he?

He was, I believe, the "200 emails" guy, and he was the only one whose email address I have (whereas *they* have all of my personal info, as I was dumb enough to include it in the account...)

As for 'moving on,' well, why can't you? Why insist on stewing on this?

Because this crap happened after a good long time of being as helpful as possible, and it's really confusing, as I don't know whether this sort of thing is worth it anymore (especially after being totally savaged for the Stones FAQ, which took hours upon hours to put together). But now we're persona non grata...remember how the link to this forum was *****ed out for a while? SOV-EET-STY-UL!

Your tendency to vent out in the open--in highly sarcastic fashion, I might add--is likely what got you suspended. That, and arguing with the one Gort you can't argue with.

"The one Gort you can't argue with." Who runs the place. What a great combination.

[Ron]

Would this be a good time to point out that Steve's mastering of Metallica's "Ride The Lightning" makes my girlfriend horny?

Ryan

Yes.